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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 4th September 2012, 04:55 PM   #7971
Jmmlc is offline Jmmlc  France
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Hello Angelo,

Since the Rice-Kellog loudspeaker (1924) improvements in loudspeakers proceeded by very small steps and always there was people arguing of "superior performance" of a given design that make all the previous models obsolete.

I cannot see how the improvements done by Beyma, which is a Spanish company more known for their replica of famous PA loudspeakers, could be considered as a revolutionary evolution of the Heill loudspeakers.

I am very suspicious about such claims. In the last years in France we used to have such a buzz about the "Janus" loudspeaker which one was presented by many as a "revolutionary version" of a design made by Paul Paddock. Even it was presented by so called audiophiles as "the best loudspeaker ever". As for your Beyma TPL150 it was said that it was far better than any compression driver + horn. Interested, I went to listen to 3 different systems using those Janus (one of them being a Swiss version of which was sold something like 100.000USD) and also I used to perform some measurements. What resulted from that experience is that the Janus loudspeaker gave a pleasant comfortable sound with a (much) simplified character and no 3D pin-point image but a wide and deep soundstage with long decays of notes and erasing of the rapid transitories. For all the voices, from different records I know well, the differences were drastically reduced between one to the other voice, all the voices sounded nearly the same. I was puzzled that the owners of those systems used to generally consider that a system that sound pleasant whatever the record is bad or good is positive when it should reproduce nothing more than the intrinsic quality of the record IMHO. When I gave a detailed report of my listenings with much details, it was as if I committed a sacrilege! Even I was insulted for that. (Even during a "European triode festival which is private, the main builder-seller of the Janus came to meet me and he tried to apply some pressure on me in order that I admit in public that "I was wrong and this loudspeaker is the best". You can imagine that I am not sensible to such pressure and refuse to continue to discuss with the guy... )

At the moment, anaother buzz is becoming popular : the DML (Distributed Modes Loudspeaker)... Well I really think this will lead to a same quickly vanishing fame...

Best regards from Paris,

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h

Last edited by Jmmlc; 4th September 2012 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 05:13 PM   #7972
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
i actually thought a " 3D holographic image " and " wide and deep soundstage " would describe the same. But that might be just semantics.....
Although it sounds like semantics, it isn't. The two are similar, but not the same. Once you've heard a "holographic" soundstage, you'll remember it. It's such a remarkable illusion that it leaves a lasting impression. Good speakers can do wide , very good speakers can do deep, but few can do pinpoint and fully rounded images. I.E. and instrument or voice is not only located in the X,Y,Z axis but had the correct shape and size - like the rela thing. It's a little hard to describe.

I have no idea if the Beyma driver can or can not do this, it certainly looks like a really good driver. At nearly $500 each, I won't be testing any soon. Tho I know you got a very good price on yours.
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Old 4th September 2012, 06:11 PM   #7973
DrBoar is offline DrBoar  Sweden
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That Swiss version, was that from somthing named similar to MF Akkoustic?
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Old 4th September 2012, 06:54 PM   #7974
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
I cannot see how the improvements done by Beyma, which is a Spanish company more known for their replica of famous PA loudspeakers, could be considered as a revolutionary evolution of the Heill loudspeakers.
hello Jean-Michel

the technical data and explanation at the website i linked to, together with the comments from various people, some very experienced, speak a strong word. When i decided to try them out, i did leave all preconceptions on side, and let my curiosity speak louder. They might not be a technical revolution or innovation, as you say, rather a evolution of a concept known already many years, but thats not what i am looking for anyway. But they have given me many hours of satisfying listening pleasure. Not looking back to compression drivers.....

Last edited by angeloitacare; 4th September 2012 at 07:15 PM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 11:34 PM   #7975
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Once you've heard a "holographic" soundstage, you'll remember it. It's such a remarkable illusion that it leaves a lasting impression. Good speakers can do wide , very good speakers can do deep, but few can do pinpoint and fully rounded images. I.E. and instrument or voice is not only located in the X,Y,Z axis but had the correct shape and size - like the rela thing. It's a little hard to describe.
I feel very lucky to have had this experience on Pano's system. I've never heard anything like that again, even on extremely good all-horn systems. My own system does things pretty well, except that last thing where you are transported to another place with every recording. Where you can point to the cello that's playing 20 feet behind the front wall. I think Pano's secret is as much in the equipment he uses as it is in the way he sets it up.
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Old 4th September 2012, 11:39 PM   #7976
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Pano,
May I ask what your system is? I think I remember someone saying something about segmented horns and alter woofer.
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Old 5th September 2012, 12:25 AM   #7977
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Quote:
Once you've heard a "holographic" soundstage, you'll remember it. It's such a remarkable illusion that it leaves a lasting impression. Good speakers can do wide , very good speakers can do deep, but few can do pinpoint and fully rounded images. I.E. and instrument or voice is not only located in the X,Y,Z axis but had the correct shape and size - like the rela thing. It's a little hard to describe.
First time I heard this effect was with a Nestorovic system 16. The holographic image was just as good 90 degrees off axis as on axis. This was an all direct radiator system and this characteristic was one Mile' sought with every system he designed and we produced. I will never forget that 5'8" black women singing Jazz and Creole..... For those of you with EnABL'd full range drivers, take one channel of the full range portion, in the box, and lay it on a surface with the driver pointing up. Listen to it from about 30deg off axis. This may be your first time too...

Bud
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Old 5th September 2012, 02:34 AM   #7978
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Gee ra7, now I'm embarrassed. Thanks for the kind words. I don't remember exactly what was running while you were here, but it certainly employed some of BudP's terrific transformers.

Buzzforb: I run a pair of Altec VOTT A5. It's a cinema speaker from the mid 20th century. Basically the famous Altec A7, but with a big multi-call horn instead of the smaller sectoral horn you might have seen. When ra7 was here I was running 8 cell, 300Hz horns. Now I'm running 10 cell, 500 Hz horns. Compression drivers are Altec 288 (ferrite) and the woofers are the Altec 416A (Alnico) with the late 16" frames. Fane bullet tweeters come in at about 7500Hz. Passive crossover of my own design. Amp is whatever I'm in the mood for.

Today I finally got a buddy from work to stop by for a listen, he'd been promising for a year. Was anxious to have him listen, as he has great audio perception (and perfect pitch). He was a monitor engineer for a lot of national acts but can still hear. When he left I asked him what he thought.

He said "Well.... usually when I go to listen to something like that I sit and make a list of all the things that are wrong with it. But damn, I couldn't find any." Instead he decided to figure out my crossover points and went up and stuck his head in the woofer and the horn, back and forth. "I can't figure it - 600 Hz or 800Hz?" I laughed. "725 Hz". He now wants to come sleep on my sofa in the music room.
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Old 5th September 2012, 03:14 AM   #7979
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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What's different from the LTO is that Pano's woofer is front loaded with a big horn. There are several advantages to front-loading the woofer with a horn.
1. More efficiency. You no longer have to pad the upper horns down by 10 or 15 db.
2. It moves the acoustic center of the woofer further back. Makes it easier to design a passive crossover (although, it is still pretty hard to get it right).
3. And finally, it controls directivity to a fairly low frequency. This last one is crucial for getting that holographic imaging, IMO. Not having early reflections in the 100-1000 Hz is key. Most direct radiators in this region are omni and that first reflection from the front wall is always there.

It would be great to see some polars or off axis curves of Pano's system as well as Lynn's.

Last edited by ra7; 5th September 2012 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 5th September 2012, 09:52 AM   #7980
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Thanks Piano. We need to do an NC audio thing ie just so I can have an excuse to meet and listen. Sounds awesome.
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