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Old 3rd September 2012, 05:51 PM   #7961
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Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post

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Angelo
To my eyes, this is a fairly horrific acoustic environment - reflective sidewalls very close and with no absorption, and horns firing straight down the room, parallel to the walls, from what I can see. Have you tried aiming them inwards towards the listening position and away from those acoustic mirrors? Did you do your listening experiments with this set up?
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Old 3rd September 2012, 07:03 PM   #7962
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Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
Angelo, I yet told this to you, if your S2 sound coloured with the 400Hz Le Cléac'h horn it is either your building of the horn was not correct
Dear Jean-Michel ,

the build of my horns is correct, as anyone can check at my website.

Quote:
or the S2 has some problem (this is often the case with S2)
Neither had my S2's any problem , nor the actual Coral M100 i am using now.

Quote:
When Lynn says the AH425 horn is not coloured and sounds like an electrostatics, there is very few reason to not believe him, he has proven to have a listening ability that very few have.
I do not question Lynn's listen habilities. Neither do i the merits of LeCleac'h horn profile.Fact that horns can sound like electrostatics can have several meanings. I usually atribute to electrostatics the hability of sounding " transparent ", clean and holographic ( at least that was what caught my attention the few times i had the oportunity to hear them ). Saying that, i had the same impression, when listented Magico Ultimo's in San Francisco, with tractrix horns, and TAD-4003. It sounded amazing : very clean and transparent . During the years i had S2/LeCleac'h horns, i thought i had very natural/neutral tone, and that was the comment also of several visitors, most accostumed to direct radiator speakers. I observed the difference only, and what was possible, once i was exposed to the TPL-150 and direct comparison. I think it has to do with the fact, that our ear acostumes very easily to determined sound. I would have nothing against being proven wrong, Jean-Michel. I do not stick, and i am not biased towards a determined technology/brand/configuration etc. What counts to me , is only, what i enjoy most. I like the learning process, and evolution. One curiosity i have, is to know how horns would behave, small as used in Goto setups , in the 1-5khz frequency range. Since in that range the ear is most sensitive, i think getting that frequency range right is crucial. Have you had the oportunity to listen to the TPL-150 ? I will be in Paris between the 27th of september, and 1th of october. I could bring them with me. It would be a pleasure to meet you, and you could check out on site what it is , that i am talking about, making direct comparisons, and prove me wrong, if that is the case. As you can see on the thread at my forum, i am not alone, many are discovering the superiority of the new breed of air motion transformer based loudspeakers.

Angelo

Last edited by angeloitacare; 3rd September 2012 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 07:09 PM   #7963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell Dawkins View Post
To my eyes, this is a fairly horrific acoustic environment - reflective sidewalls very close and with no absorption, and horns firing straight down the room, parallel to the walls, from what I can see. Have you tried aiming them inwards towards the listening position and away from those acoustic mirrors? Did you do your listening experiments with this set up?
That is not my setup, but Tuyen's, from Perth, Australia. My setup, you can see here :

AV Eikon : finished - Page 3 - Audio Voice Acoustics

and here, many examples of setup's, that use the TPL-150 :

Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics
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Old 4th September 2012, 12:22 AM   #7964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
That is not my setup, but Tuyen's, from Perth, Australia. My setup, you can see here :

AV Eikon : finished - Page 3 - Audio Voice Acoustics

and here, many examples of setup's, that use the TPL-150 :

Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics
Ahh, thank you.
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Old 4th September 2012, 07:05 AM   #7965
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Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
Hello,

Everybody should know that the name "La horns" was given to the "Le Cléac'h horns" by Romy-the-Cat...

Angelo, I yet told this to you, if your S2 sound coloured with the 400Hz Le Cléac'h horn it is either your building of the horn was not correct or the S2 has some problem (this is often the case with S2).

When Lynn says the AH425 horn is not coloured and sounds like an electrostatics, there is very few reason to not believe him, he has proven to have a listening ability that very few have.

Best regards from Paris, France

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
Matching the exit angle of the compression driver to the entrance angle of the horn throat is important. The reason that "mix-n-match" compression drivers and horns can give unpredictable results is due to this mismatch. It doesn't help that the exit angle is not usually specified by the manufacturer. I know that the Altec/GPA 288 is between and 7 and 8 degrees because Bjorn Kolbrek carefully measured his 288C's, and there's no reason for Great Plains Audio to change this key construction feature (GPA used to be the official Altec repair facility until the Altec name was sold to Sparkomatic of Taiwan).

I phoned and asked the chief technician at Radian what the exit angle of the 745 was, and the answer was 4 degrees. It's my understanding the new "throatless" JBL's have an exit angle much larger than this, in the range of 20 degrees or more.

If the exit angle is slightly narrower than the entrance to the horn, that's fairly benign, since the acoustic wave expands a bit as it makes the transition from driver to horn. An error in the other direction would be much more serious; there would be a compression "pinch" as the wave was squeezed down from a large exit angle to a smaller entrance angle. This is similar to the diffraction "pinch" of early constant-directivity horns (Manta-Ray, Bi-Radial) and the Altec sectoral horns, which has a disastrous effect on impulse response, as well as creating considerable ripple in the impedance curve.

I have heard - but do not know for certain - the Vitavox S2 is a British variant of the Altec 288 with a small error in the design of the phase plug, which causes ripples in the HF response. The difference in phase-plug may have been done to avoid infringing the worldwide Altec patent, or perhaps Vitavox was a British licensee and just wanted to do the phase plug their own way. In the late Forties and early Fifties, during the Austerity years, the UK had severe restrictions on importing non-Commonwealth technology; the British government was under severe pressure to improve its balance-of-payment situation.

The net result of the immediate postwar restrictions on importing American technology was that domestic UK companies supplied the replacement equipment for UK theaters, and German companies like Klangfilm played a similar role in postwar German theaters. In much of the rest of the world, in nations where there was no domestic equivalent, Altec was the dominant supplier of theater equipment from the 1950s through to the late Seventies, when JBL started encroaching on Altec's traditional markets.

So I am not sure why the phase plug of the Vitavox S2 departs from the Altec original; it might have been to avoid infringing Altec patents, Vitavox might have had their own reasons - who knows. But Vitavox was selling into a protected Commonwealth market, and did not have competition from Altec.

I grew up in Asia (Japan and Hong Kong) during the Fifties and Sixties, and it was all Altec over there, as it was in North America. (When I was in Hong Kong during the Sixties, it was an interesting exception to the Commonwealth preferred-trade zone. HK had free trade (as in zero duty or import tariff) with the rest of the world, as well as the Commonwealth zone, so there was naturally a lot of trans-shipping through the port.)

Returning to the Vitavox or other "unobtanium" collectibles, I'm not interested in designing around components that are only available on the audio-collector market; if a design of mine is successful, that would only result in further bidding-up the price on eBay and the exotic Asian markets. That's a sweet deal for the antique-equipment hoarders, who laugh at the rest of audiophilia, but not so good for anyone else.

Is the Vitavox S2 "better" than the Altec 288? I have no idea. I'm not willing to take another audiophile's world for it, unless I've heard their system and drawn my own conclusions. I've heard the 288, 416, and 515, as well as the Radian and RAAL, and it's a sound I like.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 4th September 2012 at 07:26 AM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 07:39 AM   #7966
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Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
I'm not willing to take another audiophile's world for it, unless I've heard their system and drawn my own conclusions.
This may sound arrogant but is certainly not meant that way. It's just that people run up to me and say "you gotta hear this!!!" and drag me into a store or hifi show demo - and, well, disappointment. Most audiophiles have different tastes than I do; I've become resigned to that.

It also means that nearly all equipment reviews are meaningless. I've driven away from $200,000 reviewer's systems and preferred the modest factory radio in my Toyota. The reaction could easily be mutual; only a small minority of audio nuts like direct-heated-triode amplifiers, large-format compression drivers on modern horns, and Altec bass drivers.
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Old 4th September 2012, 07:55 AM   #7967
limono is offline limono  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Oh dear, not Romy!
why not ? he seems to be the most advanced DJ around here
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Old 4th September 2012, 08:01 AM   #7968
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Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
It's my understanding the new "throatless" JBL's have an exit angle much larger than this, in the range of 20 degrees or more.
JBL throatless drivers have no exit angle per se. I think it should ideally be considered 0°, depending on the exact geometry of the phasing plug.
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Old 4th September 2012, 08:08 AM   #7969
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Hello Angelo,

I don't know the TPL150 but I know quite well other loudspeakers (AMT, Heill...) based on the same principle. I agree they have many qualities but they don't reach the high level of sonic qualities that I need and which ones, at the moment can only be reached using high quality modern compression drivers and horns having very low diffraction.

With such a dipole like the TPL150 or the Heil, you simply cannot achieve what we can describe as a 3D holographic image, what you obtain is a deep and probably wide soundstaging but this is not the 3D holographic image described by Lynn and described by myself many years ago (which requires also for the whole system to be low phase distortion).

I remember that before you choose to use the TPL150 you were using an old Audax 17cm loudspeaker (I hope my memory didn't failed ), a loudspeaker that I know very well since I was a teenager (Audax was a very famous French loudspeaker builder in the 60's). I was puzzled when I hear that you were finding the Audax more naturally sounding that the Vitavox/S2 combo and since that moment I developped a definitive opinion that your listening tastes cannot serve as reference. (But if the sound of your system please you, that's not a problem and I respect that, but it is only an isolated opinion, and also, be sure that Lynn and me are well aware of such psychoacoustical accustomance has you described, to trying to avoid it in multiplying the occasion to listen to as many different systems possible.).

As Lynn wrote : to match the exit angle of the compression driver with the throat of the horn to insure a continuous (1st order and 2nd order) continuity of the profile is needed to avoid diffraction at throat (and High Order Modes in other's language ). But also as you can see in pictures of the Grande Castine set-up (Musique Concrète, Marco Henry), the axis of the left and right horns should not be parallel one to the other but may cross some distance in front the listener (an advice I begun to give 10 years ago I guess). This is also a requirement to obtain the holographic image.

Many people, here in France, that did'nt followed such advices used to give bad opinions of the Le Cléac'h horns, so I am quite accustomed at opinions like of your's. (But to tell the Le Cleac'h horn is couloured when so many give testimony they are the less coloured possible, you should ask yourself what is wrong with such discrepancy between you and the others).


Best regards from Paris, France


Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h



Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
Dear Jean-Michel ,

the build of my horns is correct, as anyone can check at my website.

Neither had my S2's any problem , nor the actual Coral M100 i am using now.

During the years i had S2/LeCleac'h horns, i thought i had very natural/neutral tone, and that was the comment also of several visitors, most accostumed to direct radiator speakers. I observed the difference only, and what was possible, once i was exposed to the TPL-150 and direct comparison.

Angelo

Last edited by Jmmlc; 4th September 2012 at 08:11 AM.
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Old 4th September 2012, 10:26 AM   #7970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmmlc View Post
Hello Angelo,

I don't know the TPL150 but I know quite well other loudspeakers (AMT, Heill...) based on the same principle. I agree they have many qualities but they don't reach the high level of sonic qualities that I need and which ones, at the moment can only be reached using high quality modern compression drivers and horns having very low diffraction.
Hello Jean-Michel

if your reference point is the rather antique ESS Heil AMT driver, than i would say, you have no reliable reference-point. There has been made significant progress. The TPL-150 is a entirely different beast.

Quote:
With such a dipole like the TPL150 or the Heil, you simply cannot achieve what we can describe as a 3D holographic image, what you obtain is a deep and probably wide soundstaging but this is not the 3D holographic image described by Lynn and described by myself many years ago (which requires also for the whole system to be low phase distortion).
Well, then what i have is probably better described as wide and deep soundstage ( i actually thought a " 3D holographic image " and " wide and deep soundstage " would describe the same. But that might be just semantics.....

Quote:
I remember that before you choose to use the TPL150 you were using an old Audax 17cm loudspeaker (I hope my memory didn't failed ), a loudspeaker that I know very well since I was a teenager (Audax was a very famous French loudspeaker builder in the 60's). I was puzzled when I hear that you were finding the Audax more naturally sounding that the Vitavox/S2 combo and since that moment I developped a definitive opinion that your listening tastes cannot serve as reference.
That was a rather premature description of a experiment, i made some time ago. Today , i would say, the Audax does not sound " better ", just different, with its own characteristics and strengths, which are appealing, but since its a entirely different technology ( direct radiating speakers ), its not appropriate to make comparisons. It sounds just different and can appeal more on a emotional moment. But if the only issue is " naturalness" , then i would say yes : It sounds more natural/neutral or correct to my ears, obviously because without horn honk or sort of that. But certainly not more
" precise ", or " distortionfree ", or " clean ", or " dynamic ".


Quote:
As Lynn wrote : to match the exit angle of the compression driver with the throat of the horn to insure a continuous (1st order and 2nd order) continuity of the profile is needed to avoid diffraction at throat (and High Order Modes in other's language ). But also as you can see in pictures of the Grande Castine set-up (Musique Concrète, Marco Henry), the axis of the left and right horns should not be parallel one to the other but may cross some distance in front the listener (an advice I begun to give 10 years ago I guess). This is also a requirement to obtain the holographic image.
You want to say, the horn channels should be a littlebit inclined , like forming a triangle ? the position of my horn channels are like this.....

Quote:
Many people, here in France, that did'nt followed such advices used to give bad opinions of the Le Cléac'h horns, so I am quite accustomed at opinions like of your's. (But to tell the Le Cleac'h horn is couloured when so many give testimony they are the less coloured possible, you should ask yourself what is wrong with such discrepancy between you and the others).
I have not said that i disagree, that your horns sound less colored than
other horn profiles. That is actually where i would say relies the merits of LeCleach horn profiles. You have got probably find out the best possible solution . But it gets as far as it gets. And that means, the drawbacks are not entirely eliminated. In my view today, i would say it is probably physically impossible to employ horns in the most critical frequency range, where the ear is most sensible, that is in the midrange, without getting horn colorations in a certain degree. That might be a temporary opinion, until someone or a experiment teaches me better. As said, i would be curious to try a small horn as used in Goto setup's in the 1 - 5khz frequency range, to see if for example voices still sound as coming out of a tube. It is just a guess that this behavior might not happen, and then i would change my opinion. But so far, i keep saying : the Beyma is the best, most natural/neutral sounding mid/high driver i heard so far, it has brought a big improvement in my system, and i do not hesitate to recommend it to anyone that asks for my opinion. Sad you are not open for a update, but that is your choice.

some opinions from others in regard of the Beyma:

Hawthorne Audio • View topic - Silver Iris Reference AMT official thread

I talked with someone in the know who said that a custom pro speaker builder has switched from using TAD horn drivers in his line arrays, the ones used in concert situations, and in now using the Beyma AMT. It just sounds better. That is quite a statement as many have regarded the TAD horn drivers to be the top shelf.


The BEST drivers available at ANY price! RAAL, Beyma, AE, Aurasound, and more!

Beyma TPL150 Air Motion Transformers.
-Initially developed by Oskar Heil, these drivers combine incredible output capability with an insanely linear response, ultra low distortion, a potential 1khz crossover point, and a monopole or dipole radiating characteristic depending upon your preference. It's not too often you'll see a direct radiator spank a compression driver.

The gradual refinement of the horn plan - Page 3

The Beyma TPL-150H may not be a "real" ribbon, but to my ears it sounds truly great - much more natural and relaxed than the compression drivers I have tried so far above 1500Hz.

Hi-End and Hi-Eff loudspeakers system 2

Radiation surface four times the one of a tweeter or an equivalent compression driver, thanks to its folded geometry.
- Mobility transformer of air (Air Motion Transformer) because it causes in the air a speed four times greater than the one of the folds themselves (relation 4:1).
- This confers an enormous dynamics and an incredible transient response, vastly superior to that of any conventional tweeter, including ribbon tweeters and compression drivers.

All these characteristics make of the TPL-150 an authentic alternative to the conventional compression drivers, and contributing an enormous added value to any sound system that incorporates it.

http://forum.speakerplans.com/ribbon...837_page2.html

Look at Beyma TPL150 for an amazing "no compression" driver (different technology than Ribbon but same outlook and much more rugged). The dynamic and clarity without harshness is disturbing at first. Only problem, after some addiction to the TPL, all compression drivers sound crap afterwards...
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