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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 1st September 2012, 08:32 AM   #7951
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The latest information from my collaborator is that he will NOT be exhibiting at the RMAF show. My own loudspeakers (I may call them the LTO Apollo) will probably take six months to build - some time next year, in other words.

If you're going to spend all that money for travel, how about a sunny tropical vacation to audition Vgeorge's system?

Vgeorge, now that I've got your attention, why not consider a 4th-order highpass for the AH425 and a 3rd-order lowpass for the woofers? I've auditioned both 3rd and 4th-order highpass crossovers in the vicinity of 650~720 Hz, and I can assure you the sound is sweeter, more natural, and more relaxed with the 4th-order highpass combined with a 3rd-order lowpass, as counterintuitive as this may seem.

As mentioned earlier, these are low-Q networks that are transitional between Bessel and Linkwitz-Riley 4th-order, and the same low-Q approach for the woofer. You'll need to move the horn back a little more, but only by an inch or so.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 1st September 2012 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 1st September 2012, 09:01 AM   #7952
vgeorge is offline vgeorge  Greece
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Thank you very much for the advise again Lynn.
For sure I will try it, although not earlier than October.
Due to my work, all summer, it is not possible to do any audio related work.
Will try also to post more measurements next time.
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Old 1st September 2012, 03:01 PM   #7953
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
The latest information from my collaborator is that he will NOT be exhibiting at the RMAF show. My own loudspeakers (I may call them the LTO Apollo) will probably take six months to build - some time next year, in other words.
Thanks Lynn.

After I posted I also thought that for the cost of travel, I could buy some of the parts.

This project looks magical enough that it may make sense to build it twice; the first time with any ol' 4.5 - 6.5 ft3 cabinet and then a second time to exact specs once the specs are finally released.

So I'm thinking, why not buy all of the parts and get started?

Last edited by charliemb; 1st September 2012 at 03:07 PM.
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Old 1st September 2012, 03:57 PM   #7954
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Indeed!
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Old 2nd September 2012, 08:14 AM   #7955
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Yes build that sucker now, and prepare yourself to enjoy music in a way you may not have experienced before.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 06:40 AM   #7956
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charliemb View Post
Thanks Lynn.

After I posted I also thought that for the cost of travel, I could buy some of the parts.

This project looks magical enough that it may make sense to build it twice; the first time with any ol' 4.5 - 6.5 ft3 cabinet and then a second time to exact specs once the specs are finally released.

So I'm thinking, why not buy all of the parts and get started?
I would certainly keep the door open to building the bass cabinets twice; that's pretty much I've had to do with every speaker I've designed. The first demonstrates proof-of-concept, but usually has several things wrong with the sound. The second cabinet is an opportunity to get it right, and improve the visuals as well.

What I've learned from the first prototypes is a minimum cabinet width of 25", having the centerline of the horn at listening height or a few inches above (this is about 40" for me), and a couple inches of air-space between the top of the bass cabinet and the bottom edge of the horn.

The vent on the prototype was a full-height vent going up the side of the cabinet, similar to half of an Onken or Planet10's Fonkens, and I've decided I'll get deeper and a more felt bass by moving the vent to the floor, similar to the Ariels. The best subjective box tuning was between 30 and 35 Hz, a bit lower than standard T/S alignments for the Altec/GPA 416B Alnico.

Just between you, me, and the lamppost, I think it's possible the latest GPA 416B Alnico might have a bit more powerful magnet than the ceramic version of the 416, since it has about 1~2 dB more efficiency and the Qts is a bit lower than the old-school 416 spec. Since the 416 and 515 share the same cone, surround, and spider, that takes the current-model Alnico 416 part of the way towards a traditional Altec 515, which is just fine by me.

For the real efficiency nuts who intend to horn-load the bass driver, yes, GPA also makes a true-blue Alnico 515. This GPA driver has the biggest and most powerful magnet of all, and the highest efficiency (I'm guessing 2~3 dB more than the Alnico 416).

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 3rd September 2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 11:48 AM   #7957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
The super-high-efficiency ribbons like the top-of-the-line RAAL Lazy Ribbon are an excellent match, along with Heil AMT tweeters like the Beyma TPL-150 or Aurum Cantus Aero Striction, which also have high efficiency and high power handling. All of these match very well with the Radian 745Neo or Altec/GPA 288 Alnico, which have a much sweeter and relaxed treble than typical small-format compression drivers..
I have done direct comparisons between the Beyma TPL-150 , and LeCleac'h Fc 400hz with Vitavox S2 driver, in the frequency range above 1,2khz. ( which should compare and be quite close to LeCleac'h 320hz horns with Altec or Radian drivers ) The Beyma has its strengts not specially in the treble, but in the higher midrange , above 1,2khz. Result : i sold the S2, and kept the Beyma, which sounds much more natural, wonderfully neutral, with a correctness in timbre, specially of voices, which is phenomenal. Taking off the cap behind, and using it bipol, has brought more holographic 3d dimensionality into the picture. Dynamics isn't lacking either, with 103db/wm ( with wave guide ) , it integrates well with the other horn channels. It really transmits the illusion of a big orchestra, ore a singer being right in front. Compared, voices with S2/La horns were sounding colored, and like squeezed out of a tube. Interestingly, i did found out about these characteristics only after making direct comparisons. Before , i was sure i was having a great result and correctness of timbre as well. The listening experience is confirmed by the technical aspect of air motion transformer technology, which permits lower distortion than any compression driver , and so more fidelity of reproduction. This paper explains, why the Beyma sounds so good.

Focus on: Beyma

at this thread, information i have collected about the Beyma :

Beyma Tpl-150 - Audio Voice Acoustics

many are discovering the superiority of this topology, and integrating the Beyma in their horn setups , like Tuyen :

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Click the image to open in full size.

Angelo

Last edited by angeloitacare; 3rd September 2012 at 11:51 AM.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 02:43 PM   #7958
Jmmlc is offline Jmmlc  France
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Hello,

Everybody should know that the name "La horns" was given to the "Le Cléac'h horns" by Romy-the-Cat...

Angelo, I yet told this to you, if your S2 sound coloured with the 400Hz Le Cléac'h horn it is either your building of the horn was not correct or the S2 has some problem (this is often the case with S2).

When Lynn says the AH425 horn is not coloured and sounds like an electrostatics, there is very few reason to not believe him, he has proven to have a listening ability that very few have.

Best regards from Paris, France

Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h

Last edited by Jmmlc; 3rd September 2012 at 02:53 PM.
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Old 3rd September 2012, 02:50 PM   #7959
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Oh dear, not Romy!
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Old 3rd September 2012, 03:53 PM   #7960
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Quote:
Lynn posted:
...
The vent on the prototype was a full-height vent going up the side of the cabinet, similar to half of an Onken or Planet10's Fonkens, and I've decided I'll get deeper and a more felt bass by moving the vent to the floor, similar to the Ariels. The best subjective box tuning was between 30 and 35 Hz, a bit lower than standard T/S alignments for the Altec/GPA 416B Alnico.
I found a cabinet shape suitable to Lynn's description.
Click the image to open in full size.

I also found that getting the driver as-close-to the top of the cabinet as possible eliminated half of the internal resonance ripple that occurs around 6-900 Hz. Sloping the top of the cabinet front to back affects that.
The cabinet above is for a 12" driver. My next effort will be for a 15" driver. I'm putting a "JBL 2236" together per GordonW's recipe over on AK

Last edited by Ed LaFontaine; 3rd September 2012 at 03:55 PM.
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