Hi Gary, thank you for your answers. I asked about stuffing because I remember reading it was filled quite generously. Where you aiming at a specific Q?
I have experimented with the GPA416-8B and the J6681 is several setups, mostly with an Onken cabinet (also experimented a little with smaller sealed enclosures some time ago) and a E-JMLC600, which needs to be crossed much higher than yours (and that I want). I am right now in the process of simulating bigger horns and trying to choose what to build (3d printed). I want to try the non-axisymmetric Jmmlc horns, but many variations are possible. Jmmlc wanted to use his 6681 without the front part using the E-JMLC, starting the horn from around 25.4mm and this is a path which I am considering. The E-JMLC is quite wide in a ~350 Hz version. The "quasi" Iwatas are narrower, but there are bunch of variations. In the end I might just build an axix-symmetric one, which is the simplest, and at least I'll have something to compare the others to.
BTW, my room is large 12m x 6m (living room + kitchen), I hope I find the time to finish the final closed cabs and see how they behave in my room.
I have experimented with the GPA416-8B and the J6681 is several setups, mostly with an Onken cabinet (also experimented a little with smaller sealed enclosures some time ago) and a E-JMLC600, which needs to be crossed much higher than yours (and that I want). I am right now in the process of simulating bigger horns and trying to choose what to build (3d printed). I want to try the non-axisymmetric Jmmlc horns, but many variations are possible. Jmmlc wanted to use his 6681 without the front part using the E-JMLC, starting the horn from around 25.4mm and this is a path which I am considering. The E-JMLC is quite wide in a ~350 Hz version. The "quasi" Iwatas are narrower, but there are bunch of variations. In the end I might just build an axix-symmetric one, which is the simplest, and at least I'll have something to compare the others to.
BTW, my room is large 12m x 6m (living room + kitchen), I hope I find the time to finish the final closed cabs and see how they behave in my room.
Hello Lynn,
Does the 4” radii on the baffle sides mitigate diffraction issues better than, let’s say, a smaller chamfer on all edges of the baffle? Thank you..
Regards…
Hello Lynn, it's been a long time. I'd appreciate your commentary on the following. I was one of Jim Salk's last customers before he retired this month. As you read on you'll find that he did a wonderful job cloning Gary's 3 cu ft sealed Altec 416-8B midwoofers. Troy Crowe has agreed to finish the build for me using his pair of Yamaha JA-6681B drivers, and probably a tweeter, TBA. But I owe particular thanks to Pierre, without who's guidance and patience this all would have likely amounted to an impossible dream.
But the problem now is deciding between two horn designs for the Yamahas, and how Troy chooses to accommodate our own goals: I want the horns that will make the system sound best to the three of us without undue compromise and added expense. Troy wants to do listening tests of his ES290 horns against 4001 horns but which neither of us have. Thus, the one glimmer of hope I may have to hear the Yamaha's in Troy's 290 horns is that Pierre has long continued listening to his Athos 4001 horns (and Azura 425 horns) for years. Might this fact somehow offer a satisfactory solution??
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...horn-you-can-actually-buy.390519/post-7468828
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Just go with the ES290 horns. They look good to me, certainly as good as the Athos Audio Yuichi A290 wood horn.
The Azura AH425's are wonderful, but the coverage is pretty narrow, maybe two seats wide at most. There's plenty of sound off-axis, but they kind of lose focus 15 degrees or more off-axis. The ES290 and Yuichi A290 might be very slightly more colored, but have 90-degree dispersion, a worthwhile tradeoff.
The Azura AH425's are wonderful, but the coverage is pretty narrow, maybe two seats wide at most. There's plenty of sound off-axis, but they kind of lose focus 15 degrees or more off-axis. The ES290 and Yuichi A290 might be very slightly more colored, but have 90-degree dispersion, a worthwhile tradeoff.
Two seat sofa width is just what I find with the jmlc horns, going by acoustic parallax, ie how far across the image follows you. Although radial type horns may have wider dispersion in terms of power, you may find a stereo pair has less width subjectively in terms of image shift, and may require closer speaker spacing to achieve it. This can end up rather like mono to my ears. I like wide spacing where the stereo image hangs in the air between and jumps to one side if the recording does that.
I base this on JBL 2345s I have and Autotek E-JMLC 300 I borrowed. The latter filled the room better, my wife said it felt like a club and a great improvement on the Azuras! But to me it was a trade off with atmospheric imaging. I was using 425 or 340 jmlc horns. I recently went to 204 JMLC azuras on LM555s and I think you can't beat band width and horn mouth size.
I base this on JBL 2345s I have and Autotek E-JMLC 300 I borrowed. The latter filled the room better, my wife said it felt like a club and a great improvement on the Azuras! But to me it was a trade off with atmospheric imaging. I was using 425 or 340 jmlc horns. I recently went to 204 JMLC azuras on LM555s and I think you can't beat band width and horn mouth size.
Martin, such a comparison, coming form you, is very interesting. May I ask ask what is the distance form your listening position to each 425/204 horns, and the distance between both? What is the distance to the closest side wall?
My guess (as your comment already shows) is that some people will prefer one over the other, and that the issue you found with the E-JMLC could be related to the room and horn placement relative to the side walls.
My guess (as your comment already shows) is that some people will prefer one over the other, and that the issue you found with the E-JMLC could be related to the room and horn placement relative to the side walls.
Great guy, not just DJ, Tambourine Party Records is his record label, he sent me three LPs. I designed him octagonal vertical sections for the bass horns. I love how he finds and releases the old West African music on vinyl. I worked in Nigeria in the early 80s and went to a few clubs.
Thanks for posting the video, will be on tonight on the system. Love the Rotary Mxer, a thing in the DJ world (dominated by sliders) I learnt from another DJ I made horns for, who had a company making them.
Nice photo he sent me
martin
Thanks for posting the video, will be on tonight on the system. Love the Rotary Mxer, a thing in the DJ world (dominated by sliders) I learnt from another DJ I made horns for, who had a company making them.
Nice photo he sent me
martin
Martin, Lynn seems to be cautioning against the dreaded “head in the vise” effect you get with some horns (or even other speakers like the Quad 57s?). I am so trying to at least avoid that penalty; one reason why I’m driving myself nuts over horn selection.
Of course, other big goals are maximal 3D sound stage, imaging realism, the 90 degree dispersion, which I think Lynn believes the 290 horns have, along with excellent off-axis response.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...No.1670_0_15_30_45_Off-Axis.webp?v=1685394550
Troy did mention that he shoots for sound stage depth rather than width.
But would less sound stage width be much of a loss for me if 1.) I put them on my short (11 ft) wall?
2.) Lynn, guys, would the ES290’s sound bad if I put them on the long wall (20 ft)?
Also, it looks like my room’s ~ 37% smaller than Martin’s. 2090 cu ft. One end of one side of short wall empties down an L-shaped staircase; other end crosses a 3 ft x 15 ft hallway and on into a ~ 9 x 10 kitchen. Common triangular ceiling that peaks at 11 ft.
Therefore, given my room size and (required?) horn placement wall location length, would I be losing much if any soundstage width going with the ES290?
And what of vertical dispersion angle? ES290’s is larger so I would lose less coverage when standing?
And if the ES290s need to be on the short 11 ft wall to sound best, how would this impact imaging?
The 425's are entirely free of the "head in a vise" sensation ... I associate that with prosound horns and some electrostats. The falloff with the 425 is very subtle, unlike the headlight-in-your-face on-off effect of conical horns, which go dark very suddenly when you no longer see the horn throat.
The 425 just gradually loses focus, and not by very much. Within the three to four-foot window, it sounds just like an electrostat, although with way more dynamic range. Zero horn coloration, as in none. Measures that way, too. Impulse response is essentially perfect, limited only by the compression driver.
As you gradually move outside the window, it sounds more like a dome tweeter ... a little less exciting, a little less dramatic. It never sounds like a horn, ever. It could, of course, be used with a supertweeter, maybe around 8 kHz, but then integration can get tricky.
I still have my first set of 425's, so I can switch between them at any time if I don't care for the Yuichi A290's. But I've spent lots of time listening to the very closely related TAD horn, and that is mighty damn good, seriously top-rank pro quality. I have no doubt that Troy's ES290 is really good, too. Any of these are miles better than the "constant-directivity" garbage in movie theaters. And require way less EQ, too.
As for image width, if diffraction is well controlled (no diffraction crap in the horn throat) the image width is mostly set by the electronics. Solid-state or Class D will not extend beyond the speaker width, while good triodes will fill half the room with no trouble.
I frankly think you are overthinking this. Really good horns have superb imaging ... shockingly better than nearly all high-end loudspeakers. I have heard astounding imaging from Altec multicells, TAD wood horns, and the 425. You do need at least 2.5 meters of listening distance, though, and more is definitely better.
One thing about horns: bigger is better. The 425 is close to the minimum acceptable size, in terms of mouth area. The Yuichi A290 is not small, either, and Martin's horns are seriously large.
The 425 just gradually loses focus, and not by very much. Within the three to four-foot window, it sounds just like an electrostat, although with way more dynamic range. Zero horn coloration, as in none. Measures that way, too. Impulse response is essentially perfect, limited only by the compression driver.
As you gradually move outside the window, it sounds more like a dome tweeter ... a little less exciting, a little less dramatic. It never sounds like a horn, ever. It could, of course, be used with a supertweeter, maybe around 8 kHz, but then integration can get tricky.
I still have my first set of 425's, so I can switch between them at any time if I don't care for the Yuichi A290's. But I've spent lots of time listening to the very closely related TAD horn, and that is mighty damn good, seriously top-rank pro quality. I have no doubt that Troy's ES290 is really good, too. Any of these are miles better than the "constant-directivity" garbage in movie theaters. And require way less EQ, too.
As for image width, if diffraction is well controlled (no diffraction crap in the horn throat) the image width is mostly set by the electronics. Solid-state or Class D will not extend beyond the speaker width, while good triodes will fill half the room with no trouble.
I frankly think you are overthinking this. Really good horns have superb imaging ... shockingly better than nearly all high-end loudspeakers. I have heard astounding imaging from Altec multicells, TAD wood horns, and the 425. You do need at least 2.5 meters of listening distance, though, and more is definitely better.
One thing about horns: bigger is better. The 425 is close to the minimum acceptable size, in terms of mouth area. The Yuichi A290 is not small, either, and Martin's horns are seriously large.
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These are my bass cabinets for the Altec/GPA 416 bass drivers. They look smaller than they really are: they're actually 26" wide, so they match the width of the Yuichi A290's almost exactly, and are 30" high. There are two internal braces, with one just visible just below the woofer cutout. The other is a crescent-shaped brace just above the woofer magnet.
With the Yuichi A290 horn 11" high, a 2" spacer between the horn and the bass cabinet, and the bass cabinet on a 2" riser, that puts the centerline of the horn 39.5" above the floor, right at listening height. Overall height is 45".
They are 4.2 cubic feet/200 liters in volume, and are closed-box alignments intended for triode amplifiers with moderate damping factors. It's basically a modern version of the Altec Model 19, optimized for triode amplifiers.
With the Yuichi A290 horn 11" high, a 2" spacer between the horn and the bass cabinet, and the bass cabinet on a 2" riser, that puts the centerline of the horn 39.5" above the floor, right at listening height. Overall height is 45".
They are 4.2 cubic feet/200 liters in volume, and are closed-box alignments intended for triode amplifiers with moderate damping factors. It's basically a modern version of the Altec Model 19, optimized for triode amplifiers.
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Hi,
have you wondered about effects of room regarding all these observations, how do you think room and positioning affects things?
Martin, one more question, what would be the lowest crossover frequency that you would use with the Yamahas? (I suppose you have/had them, from the measurements on your site).
About amplification, I presume you would concur with Gary who had suggested that a 300B SET would be a superb choice for my speakers, being much like his own. But some years later when Gary described the extent of his makeover of his Amity 300B p-p mono blocks-both labor and parts quality-I don’t know what someone like James Burgess would want for building me a 300B SET amp, not to mention mono blocks, of the same parts quality. The prices of Gary’s OOP output transformers alone was quite steep, plus all of the interstage parts.
The other thing is, using that amp exclusively, how long before the tubes would likely need replacing? https://sophiaelectric.com/collecti...rincess-206-tubes/products/pages-se-300b-plus
I bought this amp long ago, which providing that Troy can keep the system impedance well above 4 ohms should at least provide low distortion performance. https://www.stereophile.com/content/first-watt-j2-power-amplifier-measurements
I also have a stock First Watt F4 amp. I think Pierre cloned the F4, though I heard that there were circuit upgrades, which he may have done, possibly along with other improvements.
I’m hardly saying that these amps represent the SOTA in performance, but in all of your experience, was there not once a solid-state amp that delivered at least most of what you’ve heard from very good tube amps?
Trust me, it does feel like I’m sorely overthinking horn selection, but my work schedule and woefully inadequate diy skills require that I try my best to choose the horn for Troy to finish my build with that hits at least most of the performance buttons-and which is most compatible with my room size and shape.
You had no comment on the TAD 4001 horn or the Athos (block milled) version, so I presume you’ve never heard them. Perhaps if my room was 5 feet longer but especially at least 6 feet wider the 4001 horns might be a great choice, owing to their (presumed?) wider soundstage. Pierre loves his 4001s and 425s. But his room is bigger and said that the 4001s need to be on the long wall, so the back of my low back Drexel chair would need to be smack in the middle of the hallway to put me 10.5 feet or so away from them! So, the 4001s are apparently not an option. Thank goodness I had only recently rechecked this!!
So, I need to choose horns that sound best on the short wall for use with my Yamaha 6681B drivers above the Altec midwoofers.
Have you already determined how your 290 horns will sound using them on the long vs. short wall?
I believe Gary does exactly all of this with his Yamahas in the 425s on the short wall, and I think his room size is about the same as mine. I thought of doing same, but while I considered living without a tweeter, should I later choose otherwise those horns don’t lend themselves to proper tweeter placement, as does the 290 (and 4001).
Though you didn’t mention using with any particular driver, I love your glowing description of the 425s; truly electrifying! How would they perform atop my Altec 416-8Bs in Gary’s 3 cu ft sealed cabinets (play down to 70Hz), placed 2.5 ft from an 11 foot wide wall (open on one side to the hallway and kitchen) with me sitting up to 16 ft away?
But as adding a tweeter should be trouble free with your 290s and Troy’s ES290s, if ONLY Troy and you would move on doing those listening tests!!
https://josephcrowe.com/blogs/news/...ompression-driver?_pos=3&_sid=c0687ae43&_ss=r
PLEASE!
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