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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 29th July 2010, 08:30 PM   #6861
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Gary Dahl, can you do some off axis responses out to 90 degrees? I've wanted to see that on those drivers for a long time.

That looks extremely impressive not only for a 15 inch speaker but for any speaker on axis. My own experience with these larger drivers has been that the smoother the on axis, the smoother the off axis. I don't know if that's necessarily the case however.
This:
Click the image to open in full size.
went to this after a few rounds of cone damping:
Click the image to open in full size.

Anyway, I am exceedingly interested in seeing what this speaker can do off axis.

Dan
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:02 PM   #6862
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Good Grief Dan! What was that?
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Old 29th July 2010, 09:15 PM   #6863
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The Eminence Delta Pro-12A 12" Cast Frame Driver.

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Old 29th July 2010, 10:14 PM   #6864
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hello Lynn,

Some thoughts about high sensitivity and things involved therein.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
With efficiency in the truly high range of 100~105 dB/metre, the most striking thing is the microdetail. The tonal character is exactly the same at whisper level as it is at full shout. Most audiophile speakers fail this test; they become disjointed and congested when you try and use them for background music - they demand to be turned up, but when you do, you have to gain-ride to avoid the crashes and breakups at high levels.
One can think how high sensitivity is usually obtained: using big horns, for example. They have the additional property for having very high directivity, and thus having less room reflections. Lack of listening room reflections leads to more perceived "detail".

However the level independent 'tonal character' is something unexplainable taking into account human level dependent loudness perception. Well, loudness is integrated in the brain and if there is less reflections integration does not yield and mostly direct sound defines the loudness. Still it's unknown how it could be level independent ??



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This loss of detail at low levels is something of a mystery to me
Can it be simply the fact that at low levels there is nothing small detail left for the ear to hear? The ear has a minimum sensitivity level and if listening at low level most of the small amplitude signals are under the threshold.


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Old 30th July 2010, 12:14 AM   #6865
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Elias, does sound reproduction with less reflection lead to perceiving less detail? I thought the research showed that the other way around--at least as far as intelligibility is concerned. Though in does seem counter intuitive.

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Old 30th July 2010, 12:35 AM   #6866
badman is offline badman  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post

Can it be simply the fact that at low levels there is nothing small detail left for the ear to hear? The ear has a minimum sensitivity level and if listening at low level most of the small amplitude signals are under the threshold.


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Except that they're still intelligible in the horns at extremely low level.
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Old 30th July 2010, 01:32 AM   #6867
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I agree with Badman. Intelligibility of song lyrics is a pretty simple criteria: either they're easy to understand or not. Some speakers do well at low levels, and others do not.

Electrostats and horns do well at intelligibility at low levels, and other types vary. I don't want to step into the swamp of capacitor audibility, but I've found that swapping capacitors can make more of a difference here than might be expected - to that extent that any capacitor has a "sound", it's in audibility and clarity of low-level sounds.

The only reason I even bring this up was that I found that swapping caps in the Ariel project - Brand Z for Brand A - was that I sometimes had to the adjust the HF crossover by 1/2 dB to retain subjective flatness, as well as encountering the difference in low-level detail. I'd be the first to agree that capacitor audibility is much subtler than chasing out driver and cabinet coloration, and is more evident after a speaker is corrected to flat response than before.

In a similar way, efficiency of the driver plays a role in capacitor audibility. There are plenty of drivers and complete loudspeaker systems where swapping any cap, including the notorious "non-polarized" electrolytic, is essentially inaudible. There are other - typically high-efficiency - drivers where cap swaps are fairly noticeable on direct A/B/A changeover.

What's going to help on the overall parts count in the crossover is the TD15M and AH425 & large-format compression driver have well-behaved responses in the 680 to 850 Hz crossover region. No need for notch filters, no need for shelf equalization, and the system is designed so the AH425 is freestanding and easily slid back and forth for phase matching in the crossover region. The first target filter will be 2nd-order lowpass for the woofer, and 3rd-order highpass for the HF horn.

What simplifies the system design is that large-format studio monitors are a well-trodden path going back to the Lansing Iconic - and the crossover frequency, dictated by the bandwidth of the horn and the performance of the 15" paper-cone woofer, is similar. Should work very well sitting on the left and right sides of Gary's 120" projection screen. Plenty of tradition there - large-format studio monitors are pretty close to what were used in the private screening rooms of Hollywood producers, directors and movie stars. Use a reasonably powerful PP tube amp, and you have a historically correct playback system for movies made from the Thirties through the mid-Seventies.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 30th July 2010 at 02:01 AM.
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Old 30th July 2010, 01:47 AM   #6868
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Small FR drivers do well on low SPL lyrics in my experience too. They aren't efficient but are coherent. Don't know if you agree.
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Old 30th July 2010, 02:03 AM   #6869
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Small FR drivers actually do quite well from low level up to their extremes.
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Old 30th July 2010, 02:05 AM   #6870
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I agree. Maybe it is possible that caps in the crossover are the bad actors here, along with subtle aspects of driver construction.

For example, (correctly restored) vintage table radios sound remarkably good at speech reproduction at moderate levels, while a modern multiway low-efficiency high-end loudspeaker can sound muffled, dull, and unintelligible at the same levels. Culprits? Class AB transistor amps, arcane differences in glues, voice-coil formers, spiders, surrounds, low-efficiency drivers, and complex crossovers that use certain varieties of crossover caps. Mostly guesswork, to be honest, but that's been my experience.

You shouldn't have to turn a hifi system up to U-571 depth charge levels to get the speakers to "turn on". That's ridiculous. If the system is muffled at low levels, something is wrong.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 30th July 2010 at 02:15 AM.
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