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Old 26th July 2010, 09:24 PM   #6841
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Interesting point of view .

Could you possibly provide the impulse responses pre and post enABLE treatment for a wavelet analysis ?

Michael
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Old 26th July 2010, 09:49 PM   #6842
badman is offline badman  United States
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I think that more important than the region under discussion is the decline of energy. Look at the blue form and how it forms fewer 'shelves' as the amplitude decreases- it's a smooth loss of energy, as opposed to short duration "pauses" and sudden dips. I'd imagine the "stuttering" of the decaying waveform to be more audible (or more precisely, more difficult to "hear past" (ignore the artifact)) than a smooth decline, purely intuitively based on what I know of our hearing mechanism.
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Old 26th July 2010, 11:07 PM   #6843
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Badman, I have no doubt what you say is correct. I only show the flip comparison as support for the argument that our software and microphones are good enough to display this sort of fine detail, as is found in the portrayal of stepped ringing in the blue plot. The red plot is "smoother", but I think this shows an incoherence in the finely detailed information, as it is received by the microphone. The blue plot does show the resonance as it decays, with a very clear indication of the ringing involved in it's decay. The red plot does not.

In this particular discussion, just what method of allowing the driver to provide the level of coherency, as is found in the blue plot, is not of any importance. In fact, George Soon (soongsc) has already exceeded this level of performance with his own investigations. I am trying to point out to Michael that until the diaphragm coupling to air incoherence as shown by the red plot, is overcome, the level of fine detail that he is concerned with, and it's improvement by providing better control of the problems he is pointing to, may be a moot point.

I do think we are looking at that threshold that Meyer and Bozak have pointed to, when they spoke of an incoherence some 40 db down from signal level that they were finding. Solving emission problems that create the difference in propagation shown between the red and blue plots would also solve their concerns.

Miichael, I do not have any more data than what is shown. John K provided these plots, along with three other comparisons of methods that can be used to change specific characteristics in emitted signals. Frankly, the other three blink comparisons were, in a general sense, much more informative and interesting than this one. However, this is the only one that showed the specific ability of the driver to produce very fine signal structure, once the coupling issues had been removed.
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Old 27th July 2010, 01:00 AM   #6844
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BudP View Post
Badman, I have no doubt what you say is correct. I only show the flip comparison as support for the argument that our software and microphones are good enough to display this sort of fine detail, as is found in the portrayal of stepped ringing in the blue plot. The red plot is "smoother", but I think this shows an incoherence in the finely detailed information, as it is received by the microphone. The blue plot does show the resonance as it decays, with a very clear indication of the ringing involved in it's decay. The red plot does not.

In this particular discussion, just what method of allowing the driver to provide the level of coherency, as is found in the blue plot, is not of any importance. In fact, George Soon (soongsc) has already exceeded this level of performance with his own investigations. I am trying to point out to Michael that until the diaphragm coupling to air incoherence as shown by the red plot, is overcome, the level of fine detail that he is concerned with, and it's improvement by providing better control of the problems he is pointing to, may be a moot point.

I do think we are looking at that threshold that Meyer and Bozak have pointed to, when they spoke of an incoherence some 40 db down from signal level that they were finding. Solving emission problems that create the difference in propagation shown between the red and blue plots would also solve their concerns.

Miichael, I do not have any more data than what is shown. John K provided these plots, along with three other comparisons of methods that can be used to change specific characteristics in emitted signals. Frankly, the other three blink comparisons were, in a general sense, much more informative and interesting than this one. However, this is the only one that showed the specific ability of the driver to produce very fine signal structure, once the coupling issues had been removed.
Any chance of this thread not morphing into just another enabl thread with more pure speculation and misrepresentations of John's measurements? Sheesh.

Dave
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Old 27th July 2010, 01:02 AM   #6845
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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I am trying to limit the damage Dave. I just didn't have any other data to show what I was pointing to.
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Old 27th July 2010, 04:23 AM   #6846
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Ok, I got your point Bud - and I even agree to some extent - but as said - the discussion about "significance" is a different one.
Also tracing down "looped reflections" behaviour is different to tracing down distortion - in that for the first you most certainly can assume that the mic is perfectly clean whereas this certainly does not apply for the second case.
Its just a question to keep things sorted out as good as it gets.

John, would you mind to post the IR files from that plots over there in the wavelet thread, to allow us for a further look into this ?

Michael

Last edited by mige0; 27th July 2010 at 04:26 AM.
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Old 27th July 2010, 09:56 AM   #6847
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Originally Posted by mige0 View Post

John, would you mind to post the IR files from that plots over there in the wavelet thread, to allow us for a further look into this ?

Michael
I don't save that stuff.
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Old 27th July 2010, 08:52 PM   #6848
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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What a pity

I've read some in the enABL thread to see if there is some discussion of your measurements.

I had no success (or possibly not enough investigated) though all in all it was a pretty enlightning reading for an evening ( though not necessarily only for the issues raised).


Michael

Last edited by mige0; 27th July 2010 at 08:58 PM.
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Old 28th July 2010, 01:12 AM   #6849
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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There are many things that difficult to interprete from measurement data. Talking with some doctors, the common breast cancer scan method only has a 60% of detecting it. Since the diagnosis is so unreliable, doctors are becomming to act like lawyers, they tell you all the worst things that can happen, and you have to sign up that you understand. My father just recently went to the hospital and stayed there for about a week, from lots of measurement data, the doctors thought this guy must be almost dead. When they came to see him, and he was eating well crying to get out of bed, it had the doctors scratching their heads for a few days.
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Old 28th July 2010, 03:46 AM   #6850
CLS is offline CLS  Taiwan
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I hope everything is all right.

And that is a good analogy (at least fits my own experiences quite well).
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