About "They Are Here"
I think I need to clarify that there is a different interpretation of "they are here" phenomenon...
Sometimes, we can hear as if the performers are in the other room, all of them. I think sound accuracy is important here?
But the phenomenon I was talking about is how the performers are transported in front of you with their exact locations.
With "you are there", many listeners might close their eyes to build the illusion. But with "they are here", you wont close your eyes. Your eyes will be wide open. My first experience with this, I jumped, eyes wide opened, moved around the room trying to "reach" the performer.
This is I think not an unusual thing. You can read review of high end speakers where the reviewer mention the location of the drum, the double bass, the lead guitar, the bass guitar, etc... In my experience, actually, this happens only or mostly with jazz recordings.
I think I need to clarify that there is a different interpretation of "they are here" phenomenon...
Sometimes, we can hear as if the performers are in the other room, all of them. I think sound accuracy is important here?
But the phenomenon I was talking about is how the performers are transported in front of you with their exact locations.
With "you are there", many listeners might close their eyes to build the illusion. But with "they are here", you wont close your eyes. Your eyes will be wide open. My first experience with this, I jumped, eyes wide opened, moved around the room trying to "reach" the performer.
This is I think not an unusual thing. You can read review of high end speakers where the reviewer mention the location of the drum, the double bass, the lead guitar, the bass guitar, etc... In my experience, actually, this happens only or mostly with jazz recordings.
Bruno has a few other ventures: Kii Audio and Purfi
Bruno Putzeys
3rd
Bruno Putzeys
Kii Audio GmbH (CTO), Purifi (co-founder)
Antwerp Area, BelgiumConsumer Electronics
Current
Purifi, Hypex Electronics BV, Kii Audio GmbH
Previous
Hypex Electronics BV, Grimm Audio, Philips
Education
297
Background
Summary
Every improvement leads to new insights and vice versa. Passion means being prepared to follow this cycle. Vision means knowing which of those cycles to follow.
Experience
Co Founder
Purifi
December 2014 – Present (9 months)Denmark / Belgium
Co-founded with Lars Risbo and Peter Lyngdorf. In skunkworks mode for the time being... Stay tuned...
Bruno Putzeys
3rd
Bruno Putzeys
Kii Audio GmbH (CTO), Purifi (co-founder)
Antwerp Area, BelgiumConsumer Electronics
Current
Purifi, Hypex Electronics BV, Kii Audio GmbH
Previous
Hypex Electronics BV, Grimm Audio, Philips
Education
297
Background
Summary
Every improvement leads to new insights and vice versa. Passion means being prepared to follow this cycle. Vision means knowing which of those cycles to follow.
Experience
Co Founder
Purifi
December 2014 – Present (9 months)Denmark / Belgium
Co-founded with Lars Risbo and Peter Lyngdorf. In skunkworks mode for the time being... Stay tuned...
Not unlike Lynn, I too have been searching over decades for that perfect sound for at home listening through DIY efforts. My journey started as a professional F.O.H. engineer looking to build the ideal installation for commercial venues which lead to recreating that same experience at home. Of course the results always led back to drivers suited for high power, dynamics and efficient operation. I've been fortunate to have access to a large variety of drive elements to try/choose over the years which has culminated with a couple of findings..........subjective of course! Lol
18" bass/sub drivers for me, are the final word on LF reproduction. The large surface area and matching VC seem so effortless in their extension and tactile and accurate in their attack. I prefer the large volume vented low tuned alignment which mimics a conventional sealed enclosure rolloff only lower in frequency. With the large SD, the seemingly less than adequate excursion limits have never been an issue in real world listening.
Midrange has been the most grueling and disappointing quest over the years with countless failures that sometimes take months to uncover where a 'boutique' sound becomes fatiguing or out of style after a time. Multiple small format Hifi drivers, arrays, and everything in between. It's been fairly recently that I've found what I believe to be the finest midrange to date and that's the JBL 2206 in a leaky/aperoidic box of 50L lightly stuffed but the enclosure walls heavily damped. I run them from 120hz up to 1.2khz 2nd order low passed and the clarity, tone, timbre and dynamics are simply put unsurpassed by anything I've experimented with to date. Over many years of R&D, I really shouldn't be surprised that JBL has produced such an excellent drive unit.
H.F. Is another matter entirely and keeps changing for me in the 8khz and up range as my aging ears keep adapting to my listening habits, physiology and genre swings. Still working on getting this right, subjectively of course but there's still work to be done. Haven't yet convinced myself that certain element types don't hold distinct advantages over others with no single element type getting it all right all of the time.
Well there's some experiences shared in a very long but interesting thread.
18" bass/sub drivers for me, are the final word on LF reproduction. The large surface area and matching VC seem so effortless in their extension and tactile and accurate in their attack. I prefer the large volume vented low tuned alignment which mimics a conventional sealed enclosure rolloff only lower in frequency. With the large SD, the seemingly less than adequate excursion limits have never been an issue in real world listening.
Midrange has been the most grueling and disappointing quest over the years with countless failures that sometimes take months to uncover where a 'boutique' sound becomes fatiguing or out of style after a time. Multiple small format Hifi drivers, arrays, and everything in between. It's been fairly recently that I've found what I believe to be the finest midrange to date and that's the JBL 2206 in a leaky/aperoidic box of 50L lightly stuffed but the enclosure walls heavily damped. I run them from 120hz up to 1.2khz 2nd order low passed and the clarity, tone, timbre and dynamics are simply put unsurpassed by anything I've experimented with to date. Over many years of R&D, I really shouldn't be surprised that JBL has produced such an excellent drive unit.
H.F. Is another matter entirely and keeps changing for me in the 8khz and up range as my aging ears keep adapting to my listening habits, physiology and genre swings. Still working on getting this right, subjectively of course but there's still work to be done. Haven't yet convinced myself that certain element types don't hold distinct advantages over others with no single element type getting it all right all of the time.
Well there's some experiences shared in a very long but interesting thread.
Hi Lynn,
How about the distortion spectra of pentodes wired as triodes, operated in Class A?
The JBL 2206 comes the closest I've seen yet to the 10" I posted here a few days ago,,, but the JBL (unless 300 watts of power handling is not enough and you need the 600 watts) still falls short in many respects.
Thanks for this. Youve done it and it works. Domes will do a good job so if we want the range of repro. CD is the only way, and that is then big bucks. Some will find the big bucks to buy, if they know it is going to really be a long term winner I am certainly looking at the throat size you mention with a 4" diaphragm. The Be dome will come later if I like the Al dome. Phase plug is such a fussy thing, we have to accept that shedloads of designs have allowed the better ones to get good press and help in narowing selecting the right CD for personal HiFi
.
You use a JBL for 2206 up to 8kHz? What you describe is something I would use for midrange in a guitar cabinet.
I see everybody really has a different perspective on drivers- I have 2206 and 2226 JBL's and really don't like them but love the generation before 2204 (best direct radiator 12 i have) and 2225 - excellent 15 for hifi.
I can't imagine he runs the 2206 to 8k, it won't get there mayby 1.2K
I misread and it was "120hz up to 1.2khz", not 120Hz-8kHz for the JBL 2206. Sry about the confusion. Still, 1200Hz for a 12" is too high for my taste and more of a PA or guitar cabinet. I really wanted to believe this myth of JBL 12" to have such crisp midrange, and tried JBL E-120 and JBL 2202, but it doesn't compare to a Saba Greencone 8", or a good compression driver in a midrange horn (500-6500Hz). BTW, the 2225 is fantastic and more useful than a my JBL 12" E-120 because it goes lower and sounds almost as good in lower midrange. I tested now, and the 2206 in a vented cabinet goes almost as low as a 2225 in a simulation in WinISD. Maybe not in the real world.
If you have something with high detail that can take over around 500Hz, the 2225 is great. Not for horn though, here I prefered the 2220 when comparing only the two.
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Yesterday a bunch of Seattle-area audio enthusiasts braved wild windstorms and power outages to attend the biannual DIY Showcase, co-hosted by Pacific Northwest Audio Society and Sound DIY. It seemed to be a nice opportunity for my speakers to be heard by a larger number of listeners. The rented cargo van had lots of space, so I brought a complete system, using my server as a source.
The server runs JRiver MC20 connected via USB to the exaSound e20 mk ii, the latter's balanced outputs feeding the Amity amplifiers. The Amity amps drive the 416's, 745's and RAALs. The subs are driven by their own plate amps.
By the way, further efforts to integrate the RAAL Lazy Ribbons have been quite successful. In listening comparisons (ribbons vs no ribbons), everyone preferred the ribbons.
Happy listeners shown below...
Gary Dahl
The server runs JRiver MC20 connected via USB to the exaSound e20 mk ii, the latter's balanced outputs feeding the Amity amplifiers. The Amity amps drive the 416's, 745's and RAALs. The subs are driven by their own plate amps.
By the way, further efforts to integrate the RAAL Lazy Ribbons have been quite successful. In listening comparisons (ribbons vs no ribbons), everyone preferred the ribbons.
Happy listeners shown below...
Gary Dahl
Never tried the Saba drivers but I have spent much time with large format midrange horns, the classic greats in installed systems......and I would respectfully disagree with your position on them for home use in other than the more unusually large listening rooms at long distances. The inTernal reflections in the 800-1200hz range at 12 ft distance are....for me.....easily recognizable.
I've considered crossing the 2206 lower at around 1k but honestly I can't hear anything objectionable at my listening levels and I have experienced objectionable qualities from 1" CDs playing any lower than the 1.2 cross I have now. The space plays a large part as well so our experiences might be farther apart than we think.
Hey Captain! That Kii speaker looks like quite a piece. Constant directivity in cardioid implementation, 2 drivers front and back, 1 each side, six Hypex amps, ton of DSP, FB from voice coil, analogue, digital or wireless inputs, and in a package 20x40x40 cm.
Going to post it on that consolidated active speaker thread. Cluttering up Lynne's thread enough.
Regarding the value high end theme in previous post: If I understand the promotional bumpf, this is going to be much cheaper than that Grimm LS1. 10K Euro a pair & it's plug and play. Supply precedes demand
and competition brings price down, even if the guy had to go with another co so he could compete with himself.Question. We know what HT has done to audio. So what will happen to it when there's a holodeck in the living room, or even the back yard?
Linkwitz thinks Kii is worth watching
Constant directivity loudspeaker designs
Apparently they're going to have it at RMAF this Fall.
