boldname,
I'm going to stay out of this argument about how horns and waveguides work but will say you have some false premises about horn gain and how this is all working in combination with the compression driver. Think about the fact that the diaphragm area is typically 10X the area of the phase plug slot entrance area and the air volume in front of that diaphragm is miniscule.
I'm going to stay out of this argument about how horns and waveguides work but will say you have some false premises about horn gain and how this is all working in combination with the compression driver. Think about the fact that the diaphragm area is typically 10X the area of the phase plug slot entrance area and the air volume in front of that diaphragm is miniscule.
It was a figure of speech, but yes - you are quite correct.Pano,
It's black on blue on my screen!
I am experiencing a HUGE sound field, like "They are here" and I have a medium sized, but very well damped room, using a highly directive mid range and tweeter. So, I would have to say you are 100% correct.
Surprisingly true.
My best case was I think with Eric Clapton's unplugged. I had the system for only one or two months.
I like changing my system to find the best, but I documented the above system for future reference if I want to go back. This one is the best from the fact that my wife really loved to play music through it, everyday! It's an achievement knowing that most of our wives are not fond of audio, are they?
Actually, a personal trade off, compromise or limitation in my system is quite strange: (1) It shouldn't disturb the neighbors (2) It shouldn't disturb my wife when played at relatively high SPL for 24 hours a day (when I'm at home). Now it is 3:45 and I'm still enjoying music
A "stereo", yes of course I could tell, but "small room", no.
Hello Pano,
In my 25x21 foot room (is this medium sized? )
Sometimes I am there, but often times, "they are here"
Sometimes I am there, but often times, "they are here"
"They are here" is much more fascinating for me than "I am there". It's crazy
But that's NOT what you represented.
"..the illusion that a small listening room is a large auditorium."
You can most certainly create the illusion, what you can't do is recreate the reality to the point where there is no discernible difference.
At the very least there will always be the "mirror"/inversion effect of the stereo recording itself - and that's a discernible difference.
Again, it's something we've been over before..
Speaking of that:
Moreover,
a statement like this:
"..one wants to achieve a "you are there" reproduction of a concert hall venue; and the other wants to achieve an accurate reproduction of what is on the source."
-isn't even logical.
IF the concert hall venue is recorded (..and with most recordings that have concert hall venues for their production - they most certainly are), then it is very obviously information from the source.
ergo,
IF your system does NOT produce that spacious concert hall venue sound (again, assuming it was a recording in a concert hall venue), then it is NOT reproducing the source material accurately.
I got talked into taking my home system to a show once and it was not only a disaster to try and get listenable sound (it sucked) it was very stressful and a ton (that's about what the system weighed at the time, maybe more lol) of work. Never again and never trust the sound at a show
This is semantics. What kind of "illusion" is it if it is easily determined to be false.
Your definition of "illusion" is much weaker than mine. There will always be small room queues unless the room is anechoic, but then it is not very useful as a playback room IMO. Some real present acoustic is necessary IMO, which kind of echoes what Bill was saying earlier.
What you are saying goes completely against studies of hearing in the blind who can sense a wall simply by echoes of typical room noises. Do you actually think that you could create a stereo system such that this person would not know immediately that they were not in Carnegie hall, but a 20 x 25 room.
Several people in this thread have complained that they have never heard a stereo that sounds like the "real thing". It is a common complaint.
The illusion that the musicians are in the room with me is quite common and very realistic. I once recorded a piano directly off of the Midi feed. When played back in my room you could swear that the piano was there. The only acoustic was my room and it was completely real and convincing. Did it sound like a piano in a large hall? Of course not, my room could never do that.
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Earl,
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Having a sound that sounds like the real thing is not the same as making the illusion of being in a very large room with that same sound of the real thing. Reproducing the RT decay of that larger space is what gives it away, that is where the illusion falls down.
I think you have hit the nail on the head here. Having a sound that sounds like the real thing is not the same as making the illusion of being in a very large room with that same sound of the real thing. Reproducing the RT decay of that larger space is what gives it away, that is where the illusion falls down.
I think illusion is a Psychological thing. If you want to feel happy, you're happy, and if you want to feel sad, you're sad, that's "illusion".
Our brain may have some ability to ignore things based on request. That's why many people say that the brain has the ability to filter unwanted signals such as delayed sound waves from room reflections.
And this room reflection thing could have been exaggerated. In my opinion, this "you are there" and especially "they are here" thing is much more about speaker [anechoic] design than room treatment. I can do that with small room with only one king size foam bed mattress in one of the wall. And in my living room which has no dedicated treatment, this is even easier.
To go from illusion to an absolute as: "could NOT tell that they were listening to a stereo in a small room." is a strong statement - incredulously so.
Still,
It can be a rather good illusion - as long as you aren't "looking to hard".
We can both point out flaws, but we know what to listen for - and despite that it can still seem eerily similar to reality when it's done well.
Still, we always know it's going to be an illusion - the same is true for even a well recorded binuaural track reproduced with headphones made for it. The binuaral recording doesn't have that physical impact of a live event - very easily discernible from reality, but that doesn't make what it can achieve any less impressive.
-the blind person extrapolation is even more extreme. They don't hear quite the way most sighted people do - they have learned to lower that auto-disregard auditory reflection feature that evolution developed for sighted people.
Yes, I'm sure many have not heard a good illusion of the venue - it's a shame, but that doesn't invalidate that it isn't possible and/or that it hasn't occurred for others.
The truth is that I also like the effect of "in the room" presentation, and to some extent it can sound more real. (..in particular systems like this usually have more tactile impact - which can make a track with a driving beat a lot more fun.) Still, having heard an actual drum kit shoe-horned into a small room and played even at very low spl's (for a drum kit) - I can categorically state that I've never even come close to hearing it sound real when reproduced, nor has it ever sounded as if it's actually "placed" properly within the room and relative to other images - it's always "scene" compressed, often to the point where the singer seems to be standing in the drum kit.
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Deja vue all over again: does the wheel exist?
It's either on the recording or it's not.
If it is, then you have the problem of emulating a 3D sound field with a 2-point source. That has traditionally been "done" with a dead-end/live-end set up, with some form of diffusers behind the listener.
I first encountered this some four decades ago. It's not how people set up their homes (my other half would have kittens) but it works.
It's either on the recording or it's not.
If it is, then you have the problem of emulating a 3D sound field with a 2-point source. That has traditionally been "done" with a dead-end/live-end set up, with some form of diffusers behind the listener.
I first encountered this some four decades ago. It's not how people set up their homes (my other half would have kittens) but it works.
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Yes, the wheel keeps 
-part personal bias, part promotional bias, part (reasonable) ignorance.
(..personal note: I like a lot of different perspectives in audio reproduction - including variations offered in car audio. I just like listening to (good) music - and am doing so while writing this.)
-part personal bias, part promotional bias, part (reasonable) ignorance.
(..personal note: I like a lot of different perspectives in audio reproduction - including variations offered in car audio. I just like listening to (good) music - and am doing so while writing this.)
That's the key isn't it - how gullible one is, or how high ones expectations are. I have high expectations.
But it also brings another [psycho] logical possibility...
When the illusion is close to real, one becomes gullible. When the illusion is far from real, one becomes demanding.
Sounds like you're in doubt?
Yes, of course you're right. It hits very hard on the "chest".
Let me tell you that it is a different thing, between having "realistic" imaging and having "accurate" sound. You can have one without the other.
Sounds like you have never/rarely experienced a realistic one? Then I can guess why.
thoglette,
If you read what I said carefully I said in a studio you can create a fairly good illusion of the large venue. And yes a dead end live end is what is a major part of this. My wife would have had more than kittens, I would have been in the dog house if I turn a room into a studio with all the wall treatments. Soffit mounted speakers would also be nice, but cutting holes in the walls and having them stick out the other side would take this beyond the wife approval level for sure. Now if I was massively wealthy I would build a dedicated sound and video room, but that isn't in the cards today.
If you read what I said carefully I said in a studio you can create a fairly good illusion of the large venue. And yes a dead end live end is what is a major part of this. My wife would have had more than kittens, I would have been in the dog house if I turn a room into a studio with all the wall treatments. Soffit mounted speakers would also be nice, but cutting holes in the walls and having them stick out the other side would take this beyond the wife approval level for sure. Now if I was massively wealthy I would build a dedicated sound and video room, but that isn't in the cards today.