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Old 19th October 2009, 08:15 PM   #6321
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Bigger is better.
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Old 19th October 2009, 08:22 PM   #6322
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolbrek View Post
It was great fun, and I would love to do something similar again
Thanks for posting it! It does look like a lot of fun. I enjoyed the video link.
It does look as big as you can legally make it. =)

BTW, how directional is it? It looks very directional, is it?
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Old 19th October 2009, 09:06 PM   #6323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kolbrek View Post
The horn system was build to make an audible and visual protest against a titanium mine in a small place called Vevring. A special "noise composition" was written for it by Maja Ratkje. It echoed out over the fjord in a magnificent way

We even came on the news (in Norwegian): Vevring jubilerer med dommedagshorn - NRK Sogn og Fjordane - NRK Nyhende

http://www.firdaposten.no/kultur/article4594801.ece

One week later it was used here: http://www.fartoyvern.no/side.asp?Id=4981&kat=864&sp=1

It was great fun, and I would love to do something similar again

Regards,

Bjørn
Thanks for joining in, Bjorn! Well, that explains the embargo you asked for in the e-mail you sent a few months back. Hope it's OK with you that I dragged this project out into the light of day here at DIYAudio - but seeing that it appeared on Norwegian television, it sounds like the massive Fjordhorn has already had its public debut.

I admire the goals of the Vevring group - the area in the video is stunningly beautiful, and speaking as a Coloradan, we have plenty of experience with destructive mining practices. In fact, I live within sight of not one, but three gas well drilling projects, one no more than 100m from the nearest houses in my development, and the town is built directly on top of 19th-Century coal mines that serviced the railway to Denver.

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 19th October 2009 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 20th October 2009, 07:50 AM   #6324
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
Hey, thanks, GM! Those are hard-to-find response curves! Much appreciated. Now, all we need are curves for the Klipschorn, Belle Klipsch, and La Scala. That should provide an interesting new vs classic comparison of vented and closed-box bass horns.
You're welcome! I use to have a bunch more using different drivers, but they were lost in a house fire and somewhere on my computer is a high res TAD 1601? loaded 825, but have yet to find it.

Anyway, a latter day Klipschorn plot:

GM
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File Type: jpg Klipschorn.jpg (31.4 KB, 520 views)
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Old 20th October 2009, 03:39 PM   #6325
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Crikey! And I thought my 416 and 604 had a rising response - midrange hump.
Some real crossover work needs to be done on the last 2 plots you posted. I hope they are raw , no filter.
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Old 20th October 2009, 03:54 PM   #6326
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynn Olson View Post
The Super HL5. Very natural and silky-smooth sound, a refreshing change from the metallic, hard-edged sound of many systems at the 2009 RMAF. I would like to bring this kind of low-coloration sound to the world of high-efficiency speakers, if at all possible.

As for Radian vs Altec/GPA, I want to resolve the sample-variation issues in the 288 samples I have before messing around with the Radians. I've heard the 288's sound wonderful in other systems, so I expect these problems can be solved without too much trouble. There's a special magic - I can't pin it down, but it's there - with the classic large-format Altec drivers.

I also expect to contact a builder of the BFM cabinets in the next few months, and choose between the OmniTop 2x12, OmniTop 1x15, or DR280 cabinets. The one with the least need for equalization will probably be the one I choose. If I can get a 105 dB/metre system to be reasonably flat without too much EQ, I'll be a happy camper.
Hmm, I think I'll find the chance to listen to a pair. It seems they have it here.
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Old 20th October 2009, 05:39 PM   #6327
GM is offline GM  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panomaniac View Post
Crikey! And I thought my 416 and 604 had a rising response - midrange hump.
Some real crossover work needs to be done on the last 2 plots you posted. I hope they are raw , no filter.
Raw. All these 'shouty' alignments were designed/voiced for ~matching impedance (high output) impedance amps and/or with somewhat lower output impedance ones with adjustable DF (bass tone control), so when dialed in to the app, they are much smoother/flatter over a wider BW. The Altecs performed so well overall that they didn't start falling out of favor until SS became the norm and started blowing drivers with high power and excessive EQ.

CD horn EQ helps them a lot, but doesn't quite have the same 'syrupy' sound as when driven as they were meant to be, so wonder if NP's 'F' series amps might be the best of both 'worlds' WRT to getting an acceptable trade-off between a tube amp's euphonic distortion and a SS amp's dynamics in a relatively affordable unit.

GM
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Old 20th October 2009, 06:38 PM   #6328
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Makes sense. And most of the Altecs behind the screen had very long speaker cable runs. The amps are way up in the projection booth. That's gotta have an effect.
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Old 20th October 2009, 10:04 PM   #6329
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I took the liberty of post-processing the Klipschorn graph that GM posted, and it appears to be the basshorn by itself (the highest frequency, if I'm reading it correctly, is 2 kHz).

There's a sharp dip at 75 Hz, a peak at 140 Hz, a cancellation dip at 150 Hz, a peak at 165 Hz, another cancellation dip at 200 Hz, the highest peak of all at 230 Hz, and increasingly ragged response above 300 Hz. All of these consistent with a horn with multiple folds in the acoustic path.

By contrast, the gradually curved Bill Fitzmaurice DR280 appears much smoother (although we don't know how much smoothing BFM used in his chart). Still, it is nothing like the wild roller-coaster of the Klipschorn or the Altec A7.

The folded-horn nulls at 75, 150, and 200 Hz are not really equalizable, since they are due to acoustical multipath cancellations within the folded horn. Trying to increase the level of these sharp dips would merely raise distortion at those frequencies, and not do much for the null itself. If you used parametric or digital EQ to remove the peaks at 140, 165, 230, and 300 Hz, it would help, but the overall response would still be pretty rough, and the time-domain response would still be very poor, thanks to all the reflections within the horn.

The biggest problem for the Klipschorn is going to be the basshorn/midhorn crossover. The basshorn is a mess above 300 Hz, while trying to "stretch" the Klipsch midhorn all the way down to 300 Hz is going to cause gross "honking" colorations. Entirely aside from the questionable performance of the folded basshorn, finding an appropriate midhorn to meet it is not going to be trivial. Even a massive Altec 1505 multicell with a 288 driver is going to be working well outside Altec recommendations, much less the dinky midhorn PWK chose for the K-horn system.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Klipschorn_FR.jpg (136.9 KB, 405 views)
File Type: jpg DR280vsDR250.jpg (78.2 KB, 405 views)

Last edited by Lynn Olson; 20th October 2009 at 10:27 PM.
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Old 20th October 2009, 10:20 PM   #6330
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It seems very odd to me that you've gone to the bill fitzmaurice designs. Nothing against them, but they're fairly rough, designed to provide sensitivity and high output as the #top priorities, as well as the ability to be constructed almost entirely with a tablesaw, where we will absolutely see some significant artifacts that can be avoided with a more focused (pun intended) design. We don't need max output, we need max linearity and S.Q. They're also diffraction-heavy compared to the Geddes and LeCleach options.

It's odd that you're focused on his graphs, too, which are single-position and heavily smoothed, vs. the SOTA horns/waveguides previously under discussion.

I certainly appreciate the value of high sensitivity and they seem well-engineered, but their raison d'etre is very different from a home hifi.
It begs the question- why not just buy a big, good pro speaker setup (maybe from bill) and call it a day?
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