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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 25th September 2009, 02:03 PM   #6171
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
I have to regect with the idea that the problem is with crossovers and tweeter excursion. I say this because the probelms with mass vocals and massed srtings is present with ELS speakers with no crossovers above 120 Hz. Now, a large panel ELS has minimal excursion problems. There is just no doppler induced IM distortion to speak of.
John - I agree with this as well. What I sense is a poor recording technique in most cases. Knowing that the recording does not have the flaws that we attribute to the speakers or electronics is very difficult to determine, but entirely critical to the validity of any judgements.

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Old 25th September 2009, 02:48 PM   #6172
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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I tend to ascribe the problem to the micing techniques that destroy any real time domain aspects of the original venue. When there are some twenty different mics all mixed together there is no way that any resemblance of a time-domain event is going to be preserved. The more dense the number of instruments the worse this effect becomes. That's why studio made recording can sound so good since there are so few mics for the individual instriuments and little to no cross talk between different microphone signals. This preserves the original time-domain aspects and some sense of realism is possible.
Terrible recording is possible even with two mics. I've done that before.
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Old 25th September 2009, 02:53 PM   #6173
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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--sort of an audio equivalent to how HDR photography works.
Yes it is. Very clever.

Good recordings do exist on "compromised" formats. Like CD and even vinyl. It's amazing what lies in those grooves if you can get it out. That has always surprised and impressed me.

I've heard big symphonic works done right on huge 4-way horn systems, double stacked ESLs - and even on more conventional (but $$$) cone type systems. There was one at T.H.E. SHOW in Vegas this year. From the Netherlands, IIRC. Strain gauge cartridge on the table, too!
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Old 25th September 2009, 03:09 PM   #6174
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Originally Posted by soongsc View Post
With the limited data that I have seen, I think ELS speaker CSD is not good enough.

My comments were in regard to over excursion and IMD or other nonlinear distortions which are generally very low for large format ELS. You are referring to features which are in the category of linear distortion.

Frankly, I see this as somewhat anecdotal. High quality after high quality system has problems with mass voices/strings. Then a system is stumbled across which seems to handle them well. Statistically it's more likely than not that the systems which seem to perform poorly are actually the more actuate where as the one that sound correct (or better to the ear) is actually the system with a complimentary error. A purely subjective evaluation without any data to back it up, even a simple frequency response measurement.
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Old 25th September 2009, 03:19 PM   #6175
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
My comments were in regard to over excursion and IMD or other nonlinear distortions which are generally very low for large format ELS. You are referring to features which are in the category of linear distortion.

Frankly, I see this as somewhat anecdotal. High quality after high quality system has problems with mass voices/strings. Then a system is stumbled across which seems to handle them well. Statistically it's more likely than not that the systems which seem to perform poorly are actually the more actuate where as the one that sound correct (or better to the ear) is actually the system with a complimentary error. A purely subjective evaluation without any data to back it up, even a simple frequency response measurement.
Again John I completely agree.

I really disagree with classical music being the only venue from which to judge sound quality. I'm not a real fan but I have been to more than a hundred live classical performances, so I'm not a novice either. But the recordings just seem so bad to me, while many other recordings sound fine, even great. It all seems to be source related from what I can tell and if the recording IS bad then it should SOUND BAD and any speaker that makes it sound better is inferior.
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Old 25th September 2009, 03:29 PM   #6176
pooge is offline pooge  United States
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Again John I completely agree.

I really disagree with classical music being the only venue from which to judge sound quality. I'm not a real fan but I have been to more than a hundred live classical performances, so I'm not a novice either.
Heretic! Where would Bugs Bunny be without classical music!!??
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Old 25th September 2009, 04:06 PM   #6177
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Last edited by Robh3606; 25th September 2009 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 25th September 2009, 04:20 PM   #6178
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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.... from what I can tell and if the recording IS bad then it should SOUND BAD and any speaker that makes it sound better is inferior.
No
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Old 25th September 2009, 04:36 PM   #6179
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
My comments were in regard to over excursion and IMD or other nonlinear distortions which are generally very low for large format ELS. You are referring to features which are in the category of linear distortion.

Frankly, I see this as somewhat anecdotal. High quality after high quality system has problems with mass voices/strings. Then a system is stumbled across which seems to handle them well. Statistically it's more likely than not that the systems which seem to perform poorly are actually the more actuate where as the one that sound correct (or better to the ear) is actually the system with a complimentary error. A purely subjective evaluation without any data to back it up, even a simple frequency response measurement.
I don't know whether anyone has documented what for of problem should sound like what, but normally when the speakers are driven into the non-linear region, the more noticeable thing would be impression of sound being compressed. Most of the time when we consider distortion, unless the distortion in continuous, in the same form for some time, we would consider it as some short term sonic irregularity, and is normally not irritating. Combine this with a long CSD time, the suddenly it is more noticible, and probably will show up as harmonics of some sort. But in a listening test, we would probably not be able to identify it as distortion, and if you currected for this kind of non-linear effect, it may not provide audible improvement if the CSD characteristics is not good enough.
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Old 26th September 2009, 12:59 AM   #6180
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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A bit OT but shomwhat related. I attended a meeting on 3D displays recently, and as someone addressed the issue about 30% of the people cannot differentiate between 2D and 3D, I could not help but think how it also applies to audio as well. I further remembered that fighter pilots go through additional visual tests to determine how good distance differences can be interpreted. What this means, is that in reality, very few people have good capability to interprete 3D image. This makes me wonder what percentage interprets 3D capabilty of sound image.
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