Beyond the Ariel

My reference was not to the 20' x 16' room. You're right this is not considered large by any means. Our actual living room is 22 x 16.

My reference was to a 20' x 26' family room that we built. My point was that even with a 520 square foot room most people wouldn't care for the placements that have been suggested.

You will not find many 520 sq foot living rooms (or any other room in the house for that matter) around the country. That was the room I was referring to.
 
MBK said:


Correct, the listening position also has to be a minimum of 5 or 6 ft off the back wall. So that now requires a minimum room size of 20 ft wide and 15-16 ft deep, with speakers along the long wall. I completely forgot about the back wall when I recalculated these values (maybe because my own listening position also is in the middle of the room).

A more directional speaker won't help with the back wall issue though, or would it?


I also thought about your claim to Stage Width enhancement from early reflections off of the side walls. I striongly disagree with this. The imageing of the recording is in the recording and no room reflections can "enhance" what is there or not there. Side wall reflections after 10-15 ms. add to spatiousness, but they can never enhance imaging. What you are talking about appears to be the false creation of SW when one is not present in the original recording. I am not a fan of putting the speakers along the long wall.

Directional speakers can't help with the back wall which is why it needs to be as far back as possible. The directivity helps immensly with the side wall problem however.

I still don't see the wide directivity of a ribben being a positive thing.
 
Teh said:
My reference was not to the 20' x 16' room. You're right this is not considered large by any means. Our actual living room is 22 x 16.

My reference was to a 20' x 26' family room that we built. My point was that even with a 520 square foot room most people wouldn't care for the placements that have been suggested.

You will not find many 520 sq foot living rooms (or any other room in the house for that matter) around the country. That was the room I was referring to.

I think that it is your point of view that is unreasonable.

I have always said that a multi-purpose room is bad for all of the purposes. At some point a commitemnt to audio must be such that it allows for a dedicated AV room, such as I have and such as many many people that I know have. I idea that I can have a living room that pleases the wife which is also a listening room that pleases me is not viable.

That said, it does not take that much space. My room is 14 x 20, a very typical space, and it is in the basement - my wife could care less. It is also the home theater, which everyone loves - it has two functions, movies and audio, and excels at both. This whole approach is quite practical, reasonable and doable (see my book on the subject).

You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.

And yes, I have a wife and two kids, live in a typical midwestern home, and everything works out just fine.

Living in an apartment in SF or NY? Well forget about ever really enjoying audio or home theater. Its not going to happen. Sorry - I don't make the rules.
 
Re: Room diffusion

kevinh said:

Earl is right the more diffuse the reflected soundfield the better.

IMO RPG is the leader in the acoustic design of listening spaces using architectural components. Not a real high WAF though. Their components can do a great job optimizing a rooms behavior.

http://www.rpginc.com/research/index.htm


I don't have anything against RPG, but the best room acoustics that I have obtained don't use any of their products. Its easy to build the right things into the room. Read my book on home theater and you will see that expensive "sound fixes" are simply not necessary. I have never used any in any of the dozen or so rooms that I have built.
 
I'm with Teh on this one. 20x16 is much larger than my room (13x18) and my room is big for a typical greater NYC dwelling. Here the sqft cost is probably closer to $400/sqft. Fortunately I have two large openings into other rooms which expands the depth of my room and places me further from the back wall. This isn't the norm in this area.

I consider 20x16 in the medium range. Unless you are in the sticks or far from a major metropolis area, chance are you don't have a room as large as 20x26 unless it your house costs over $3m.

I am not trying to argue semantics on what determines a large room, but I've been to Dr. Geddes home and seen the size of his rooms. They are much larger than typical in my metropolitan area. His home in this area would be a few million easy.

But more importantly, unless you have a dedicated room, the room layout is very unpractical.
 
gedlee said:
You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.

I don't think that is fair. Most folks I know who are fanatic about audio don't have a dedicated room. Is simply is unaffordable in a major metropolis area. I think I recall that the great NYC area makes up 10% of the population of the US and that does not including the bay area, LA, Boston, Chicago, etc. So to write off those living in these areas is writing off a large portion of your potential client base, IMHO.
 
JoshK said:


I don't think that is fair. Most folks I know who are fanatic about audio don't have a dedicated room. Is simply is unaffordable in a major metropolis area. I think I recall that the great NYC area makes up 10% of the population of the US and that does not including the bay area, LA, Boston, Chicago, etc. So to write off those living in these areas is writing off a large portion of your potential client base, IMHO.


Perhaps it is a little unfair, but it is a reality. A really good sound setup takes space - thats all there is to it. If you don't have that space then there is not much that you can do about it. But I see no reason NOT to discuss optimal spaces especially since such spaces are readily available to a very large population of people. I don't buy my sound system at Best Buy, and my speakers will never sell there, so clearly I am not going after the mass market. I couldn't compete there if I wanted to.

I am often asked what someone in a small space can do. Honestly, the situation will always be a compromise, and I am not the person to decide those compromises for someone else. However, no matter what the situation, I believe that the more directional the sound system the better and the more compromised the situation the more likley this is to be true. Beyond that there are no "golden rules" for the highly compromised sound situation.

I have identical speakers in my dedicated Home Theater and in my "typical living room". The difference is substantial and the dedicated space is by far the better. The sound system simply cannot make up for the space, but the space can accentuate the sound system. The speakers in the living room are seldon used for anything more than background music. No serious listening is ever done there. This, I feel, is the big issue. When I see sound systems wedged into a family room, they are virtually never used for anything more than background music.

I am sure that there are exceptions, but this is what I have seen as the general rule.
 
Originally posted by gedlee
You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.

Sorry Earl, I can't resist this one.

Passionate about what? Audio equipment? Acoustic performance? Enjoying listening to music?

Personally, the last two places I have lived meet your requirements of room size, dedicated audio room, and probably audio equipment. But going back before that time, even to when I was a kid listening to the newly released early Beatles records, I think I always enjoyed listening to music even in substandard rooms with substandard equipment. As my financial situation has evolved the room and the equipment has evolved dramatically but the enjoyment of music has remained a constant. The equipment and room are a luxury, the music is what is important and without the music the room and equipment are not of interest. I have no interest in home theater.
 
JoshK said:

I am not trying to argue semantics on what determines a large room, but I've been to Dr. Geddes home and seen the size of his rooms. They are much larger than typical in my metropolitan area. His home in this area would be a few million easy.


I guess point of view is everything. My home here is worth about $450,000, only slightly above the midpoint of home values for the metropolitan area, and not that high even by national standards. Actually low for my part of the woods. I never considered it large, I have many friends in much larger.

Its all a matter of choices, where we live, how big our house is, if we have a dedicated litening room. I strongly objected to the post claiming that this whole discussion of room layout was achedemic, and that no one in their right mind would ever do this. THAT WAS UNREASONABLE.
 
MJK said:


Sorry Earl, I can't resist this one.

Passionate about what? Audio equipment? Acoustic performance? Enjoying listening to music?

I have no interest in home theater.

Last first - big big big mistake - visual aspects of music performances highten the experince immensly. You are missing out big time here.

I abhor "audio equipment", I love designing speakers because it is challenging, but I do it all because I am passionate about the music. To claim that the quality of the playback is not highly important to the listening experience is totally incorrect in my mind.

And I love film - it is nearly on par with music IMO. I want my theater to rival the best commercial ones - it does.
 
Freq and imaging

I think the question of reflections and diffusion is freq dependent. If you look at diffusors used on studios they don't affect the bass and midbass areas.

A Wave guide like Earl uses would get rid of some of the problems with the rear and side walls.

In Generals though and OB design isn't the best for a small listening room. The need room to work their best.
 
Re: Re: Room diffusion

gedlee said:



I don't have anything against RPG, but the best room acoustics that I have obtained don't use any of their products. Its easy to build the right things into the room. Read my book on home theater and you will see that expensive "sound fixes" are simply not necessary. I have never used any in any of the dozen or so rooms that I have built.

Thanks for the info Earl, I haven't read your book. I was aware of RPG and their attempts ti scientifically design room acoustic devices and control room acoustics.
 
Re: Freq and imaging

kevinh said:
I think the question of reflections and diffusion is freq dependent. If you look at diffusors used on studios they don't affect the bass and midbass areas.

A Wave guide like Earl uses would get rid of some of the problems with the rear and side walls.

In Generals though and OB design isn't the best for a small listening room. The need room to work their best.


Bass and midbass are pretty forgiving of reflections - yes. It is, as I said in another post, the range above about 1 kHz that dominates the percption situation.

The waveguides are best for the wall behind the speakers and the side walls.

Your last point is enlightening - especially given the "room size" discussions above. I barely have enough room in my "huge" home for highly directional loudspeakers that aren't so sensitive to room boundaries - I can't imagine how much space would be required for OB's to work their best.
 
gedlee said:

I guess point of view is everything. My home here is worth about $450,000, only slightly above the midpoint of home values for the metropolitan area, and not that high even by national standards. Actually low for my part of the woods. I never considered it large, I have many friends in much larger.

Its all a matter of choices, where we live, how big our house is, if we have a dedicated litening room. I strongly objected to the post claiming that this whole discussion of room layout was achedemic, and that no one in their right mind would ever do this. THAT WAS UNREASONABLE.

For comparison, my house is worth about $600k and is 1,300sqft and has no room even close to the size of your HT. Not to put down MI, but MI has the worst economy in the US with the highest UE and is the majority of the subprime mess right now. It is really low on the value index of home prices nation wide. The coasts are far more expensive places to live.
 
I realize it is all choices. My point was that I think you think that the majority of audiophiles can build a dedicated medium sized space if it were high enough priority and I don't think that is quite true.

When it comes to choices, I don't think there is many places in the midwest where a 31 year old guy can make the kind of living where he could afford to buy a $600k home (without massive leverage, i.e. >25% down). The higher paying jobs are typically on the coasts, with the exception being Chicago.
 
Re: Re: Freq and imaging

gedlee said:
The waveguides are best for the wall behind the speakers and the side walls.

Your last point is enlightening - especially given the "room size" discussions above. I barely have enough room in my "huge" home for highly directional loudspeakers that aren't so sensitive to room boundaries - I can't imagine how much space would be required for OB's to work their best.

Outdoors with a wall or building 3-4m behind the speakers is best. A friend has one of my sets of OB's, just a pair of cheap 15" selenium coax with my bass enhancer pathway. We set them up 10-15ft outside in front of his hotel and it's the most "live" sound I've ever heard, much better soundwise than any concert I've attended. I can't wait to get over there for another concert night.

Indoors I use significant attenuation of the rear output, making placement much easier, while retaining the natural open OB sound. My front/rear WG's require even more rear attenuation because their output is so much more focused by the rear WG.
 
JoshK said:
I realize it is all choices. My point was that I think you think that the majority of audiophiles can build a dedicated medium sized space if it were high enough priority and I don't think that is quite true.

When it comes to choices, I don't think there is many places in the midwest where a 31 year old guy can make the kind of living where he could afford to buy a $600k home (without massive leverage, i.e. >25% down). The higher paying jobs are typically on the coasts, with the exception being Chicago.


I don't think that this is true - any of it.

I don't think that the "majority of audiophiles can build dedicated ... spaces", its just that I focus on the higher end of the market where people ARE more likely to take thier listening serious and dedicate a space. I realize and understand that this may be the exception. Do you realize and understand that the mass is not what I am aiming at? I want to work with and for the individual who is interested in the extreme - not the norm.

I have always found the midwest to have the highest "standard of living" in the States and Chicago is King in this regard. But Chicago is not the only place, hardly. There are jobs all across the midwest - not great now, but they are there. The coasts do pay more, but the standard of living is always lower. I have been sought after time and time again by companies on the coasts - they can never compete with my standard of living.

I had a dedicated listening room in the basement of my meager $80,000 home when I was right out of school - about 31. That house is much more today, but I would say that a theater like mine could easily be put into a home costing around $200,000 in this area. I know, I have done it for a friend.

Living on the coasts costs you a lot in terms of standard of living. But its your choice.
 
JoshK said:


For comparison, my house is worth about $600k and is 1,300sqft and has no room even close to the size of your HT. Not to put down MI, but MI has the worst economy in the US with the highest UE and is the majority of the subprime mess right now. It is really low on the value index of home prices nation wide. The coasts are far more expensive places to live.


MI has its ups and downs - and yes its way down now, but I don't know anyone who is starving and all my friends and family are employed and living well. MI has also had the best ecomony in the US in the past - in the last ten years. Living here you learn what "ups and downs" are all about. One year you get a million dollar bonus and the next year you pray you don't loose your job.

Its all about choices.

My wifes home in Hong Kong wasn't even big enough for a couch let alone a stereo. She doesn't live there anymore - she likes MI.

By the way have you read Dr. Taleb's book "Black Swans"? You really should.
 
Re: Re: Re: Freq and imaging

johninCR said:


Outdoors with a wall or building 3-4m behind the speakers is best. A friend has one of my sets of OB's, just a pair of cheap 15" selenium coax with my bass enhancer pathway. We set them up 10-15ft outside in front of his hotel and it's the most "live" sound I've ever heard, much better soundwise than any concert I've attended. I can't wait to get over there for another concert night.

Indoors I use significant attenuation of the rear output, making placement much easier, while retaining the natural open OB sound. My front/rear WG's require even more rear attenuation because their output is so much more focused by the rear WG.


John: it's so hard to follow all the posts on so many different forums/threads by dedicated DIYer's, and particularly those experimenting with designs that have proven to be "impractical" for those of us with restricted domestic circumstances.

The few times I've had opportunity to play with OB's, they definitely sounded best in an outdoors situation, and notably with much clutter starting a few meters behind the panels, and extending several further back. How do you achieve the attenuation / diffraction of the rear wave for your indoor situation?