Beyond the Ariel

[lrntglls]

Fertin has taken off the surround from his drivers....and won't

be putting them back soon......way better sound with no surround...

much less distortion...everything becomes clear, transparent.

[ScottG]

Originally posted by dlr


There are the caveats, "depending a great deal on the partnering diaphragm material" and "in the same design". This appears to be in agreement with what I said, so I'm puzzled by the apparent contradiction with the rest of your post.

Surrounds need to be chosen to work optimally with the cone to be used. In one case, foam may be best. The SS 21W/8554 comes to mind. In another case, rubber may be preferable. Many of those come to mind.

It's not self evident that for any individual case where one surround type is less effective (say rubber was less effective for the 8554) that by extension all drivers will perform better with foam.

Dave

(..I should have also added *shape* as a caveat.)

What contradiction?

I certainly don't think *all* drivers will perform (in total) better with foam surrounds. Certainly drivers with stiff straight profile cones creating dominate in-band resonances will overall NOT perform better with foam (vs. rubber). (..that's why I added the caveats.) As an industry average however, they would be more eff. if they did.

As an interesting "aside" to this discussion:

I had always presumed that the "correct" role of a surround was to ONLY:

1. keep out-of-phase sound from leaking through to the front (i.e. baffle duty), and

2. keep the vc centered during excursion.

NOT provide cone edge damping. Nor alter compliance.

[ScottG]

Originally posted by lrntglls
Fertin has taken off the surround from his drivers....and won't

be putting them back soon......way better sound with no surround...

much less distortion...everything becomes clear, transparent.

Probably less *apparent* distortion. Measured distortion with a traditional amp.. I doubt it.

BTW.. If I had the space or the time this particular driver would be my number one choice for a radial mid-range in a "desert island" system. (..with the "whizer" removed though.)

Fertin 20 ex model 7?

[gedlee]

Originally posted by lrntglls
.....way better sound with no surround...

much less distortion...everything becomes clear, transparent.

Well I guess thats the answer! Who needs data when we have audiophiles.

[lrntglls]

The final judge will always be your hears...now I'm not saying

that data are not improtant. But as a driver with a surround

and one with the difference is sound is important ...and a

simple listening test will show this.

[miamiphoto]

oh my god so long discussion!

hi to all

seems the Ariel is one of the best speaker diy.

In your opinion there is a better diy speaker?

[miamiphoto]

obviously the final judge are the hears!

But objectively and not subjectively there is better dyi, or the ariel is near at the "state of the heart"?

[ScottG]

Originally posted by gedlee


Well I guess thats the answer! Who needs data when we have audiophiles.

The only audiophiles I know of who are professionals as audiophiles are: writers.

For the rest - its a hobby. Does this particular hobby need "data" beyond personal listening? In fact, might not the hobby be *more* enjoyable without it?

(..of course this forum isn't exactly limited to this particular hobby, thankfully. However, this forum *does* include this activity - also thankfully.)

[dlr]

Originally posted by ScottG
(..I should have also added *shape* as a caveat.)

What contradiction?

The description was about the "sound" of the surround, then the caveat of the "partnering" diaphragm. The original claim (not yours) was of a "sound" uniquely applicable to the surround irrespective of the diaphragm. I simply reject that latter claim and still do.

[QUOTE]I certainly don't think *all* drivers will perform (in total) better with foam surrounds. Certainly drivers with stiff straight profile cones creating dominate in-band resonances will overall NOT perform better with foam (vs. rubber). (..that's why I added the caveats.) As an industry average however, they would be more eff. if they did. [/I]

I agree that treated foam will indeed perform better than rubber in the right usage, but I don't accept it as a "sound" identifiable by the material itself. It is related to how well or not it terminates the diaphragm, thereby reducing breakup and its associated "sound".

As an interesting "aside" to this discussion:

I had always presumed that the "correct" role of a surround was to ONLY:

1. keep out-of-phase sound from leaking through to the front (i.e. baffle duty), and

2. keep the vc centered during excursion.

NOT provide cone edge damping. Nor alter compliance.

A diaphragm can be constructed such that no surround is required. Even today there are some corrugated edge diaphragms. They generally do allow for much longer excursions in larger drivers, but some midrange units do not use a surround. KEF is making just this sort of driver. It is severely limited in displacement, of course.

The spider's role is to maintain the former/voice coil centered. The surround aids in this a small bit, of course, by preventing any rocking, but a corrugated edge will do so as well. It really would only require a 3-point edge system to do this. Have you seen those driver experiments that do not have a spider, either? They use a web of filament of some sort to maintain the voice coil and provide restoring force. Not very practical, though.

It is necessary, of course, to isolate the front from the back, but again, a corrugated edge will do that. The one area where a good surround does excel (done correctly) is terminate the edge to control breakup while still allowing for greater displacement.

Dave

[Lynn Olson]

Originally posted by miamiphoto
oh my god so long discussion!

hi to all

seems the Ariel is one of the best speaker diy.

In your opinion there is a better diy speaker?

The Ariel was a good speaker of the day, but that was back in the early Nineties, and the drivers are no longer available. There were many compromises, most of all dynamically, to keep it small and relatively simple. But the measured response in the time domain was pretty good, and I'm aiming for that for the new speaker.

Right now I'm reading MBK's "Adventures in Cardioid" thread very carefully, since I plan to experiment with resistive-mesh baffles for the 414 and/or 12NDA520.

If you were going to make a "new" Ariel with new drivers, the JA8008 would be a candidate, along with the Skaaning/Audio Technology drivers. I've heard the Skaaning drivers, and they have the same design characteristics as the original drivers in the Ariel - smooth rolloffs, usable with reasonably simple crossovers, and good subjective qualities. For all I know, Ejvind Skaaning designed the Vifa P13WH-00-08 and the Scan-Speak D2905/9000 - they certainly sound similar to the Skaaning drivers, while Scan-Speak, Vifa, and Seas have moved in a different direction.

But this would require an all-new crossover, a new transmission line, and after all that, it would be a new system.