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Old 11th April 2009, 12:51 AM   #5181
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee



That Wilson Audio thinks cabinet radiation is a big deal is of no importance to me at all, and that you can feel cabinet vibration and hence believe that it is a problem is also incorrect.
If you can feel it vibrate, most likely the total volume of displacement would not be that much less than the driver itself. Why would it not be of any importance? I could imagine that if other aspects of stored energy mask this, then it would less significant, but not for good speakers.
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Old 11th April 2009, 03:03 AM   #5182
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Originally posted by soongsc If you can feel it vibrate, most likely ...
There's quite the scientific deduction.

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Old 11th April 2009, 03:09 AM   #5183
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Originally posted by dlr


There's quite the scientific deduction.

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Old 11th April 2009, 03:24 AM   #5184
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick Miller

I hope that the only thing you are saying that is not important is the LEVEL of the sound coming from the enclosure. That the level is so small that it is un-important at that small level compared to the main cone output.

I think that I have been clear on that point. My breathing in the listening room affects the cone motion, of that I have no doubt. That it is insignificant, I have no doubt about that either. It is classic audiophile to raise an effect to a level of importance way beyond its actual significance simply because "it has to happen".
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Old 11th April 2009, 04:20 AM   #5185
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
That Wilson Audio thinks cabinet radiation is a big deal is of no importance to me at all,
Should I say;
"That the Earth revolves around the sun is if no importance to me at all"

Oh please...

Come on Earl. You play all scientific, then shoot yourself in the foot like that. Really makes me doubt your ideas, all of them - and that's a shame as you have many good things to say.

You can shrug it off if you want - why should you care what I think? But you quickly loose your audience when you ignore basics like this.

I, for one, will take whatever you say with a large grain of salt from now on. This is not only your loss, but mine - and perhaps that of many other readers.
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Old 11th April 2009, 04:53 AM   #5186
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Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac

Should I say;
"That the Earth revolves around the sun is if no importance to me at all"
[...]
So what Wilson Audio thinks about cabinet radiation is on a par with the earth revolving around the sun? Seriously? Perhaps if you read Earl's posts more carefully you wouldn't look like a nutcase.
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Old 11th April 2009, 06:25 AM   #5187
Teh is offline Teh  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by panomaniac


Should I say;
"That the Earth revolves around the sun is if no importance to me at all"

Oh please...

Come on Earl. You play all scientific, then shoot yourself in the foot like that. Really makes me doubt your ideas, all of them - and that's a shame as you have many good things to say.

You can shrug it off if you want - why should you care what I think? But you quickly loose your audience when you ignore basics like this.

I, for one, will take whatever you say with a large grain of salt from now on. This is not only your loss, but mine - and perhaps that of many other readers.

Pano...you're kidding right?

With all Earl's brought to these discussions you can say something like that?

Maybe it would be appropriate for you to ask why "DR." Geddes feels that way?

Frankly, I've been watching this thread from the beginning. I don't pretend to be the design gurus so many of you profess to be but one thing is very, VERY, clear. There is not one consensus on "design".

Furthermore, Lynn, himself, has comments on the absolute precision and stunning dynamics of the Summas. That's quite a commentary. I've also read reviews comparing the Summas to other OB speakers and the reviewers actually commented that the Summas were, not just better, but, FAR superior.

As an acknowledged layman, I have found just how complicated so many of you make of every design issue and, as is often the case, trying to conquer all usually degrades the end result. One thing that's glaringly clear, at least to me, is that Dr. Geddes has chosen what he feels are the most important issues in speaker design (to him) and clearly demonstrated it's viability through scientific methodology and proof. Supporting opinion of the outcome of his "opinions" have been among the most stunning I have EVER heard.

So, I think it only fair you get off that horse.

It's okay for people to have differing opinions...what's not okay is to throw stones at someone just because the opinion is different than yours or your version of a "consensus".

Really, wasn't the same ridicule directed at many of our society's greatest inventors? In retrospect...are they not all considered today...genius?
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Old 11th April 2009, 06:58 AM   #5188
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
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I'm with Pano on this one. I wonder just how much there is to learn on these forums when the people who are self professed experts, and sometimes even proven experts, seem unable to agree on anything much at all, no matter how basic is the facet being discussed.

Second to that if interpretations of the so called data cannot be agreed on perhaps the subjectivists carry some weight in the arguments. Don't ask me which ones as there are too many over the years I have been in this and other forums.

I have also noticed a trend lately for questions which are more of a theoretical nature than " how do you do this?" which come from those of us who are not so well educated or informed to be ignored.

People with a proven practical background such as Pano, GM and few others have my admiration for the way they freely share their experience.
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Old 11th April 2009, 07:00 AM   #5189
MBK is offline MBK  Singapore
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I have to say I also have a lot of sympathy for Earl's impatience with some of the discussion points and his resulting hand waving on design issues he thinks are secondary. The order of magnitude of the problem really matters, it determines what to attack first, and here it's not about what is measurable at all, but what does subjectively matter the most. Not to mention that what matters the most may not be the easiest to measure.

Before I became a bit more competent in judging the issues in acoustics, and in building and measuring speakers, I also tried a lot of the usual suspect audiophile tweaks. Even with the benefit of builder's bias I often could not hear any difference and whenever I did, I could not tell for sure if the difference was an improvement. One of the things that supposedly mattered in say the mid 80's to 90's period, was spikes under your speakers. Cables of course. Binding posts. And what not. And what turns out to be actually important? Power response. Directivity and its angle and shape. High order harmonics even in small quantities. Everything that has nothing to do with contemporary audiophile obsessions.

John K to offer a comment on your graphs: the different FR bumps for box and u-frame vs. truly open baffle can be explained with not too much trouble by resonance of the box (the air that is) and the cavity resonance of the u frame. This does not have to mean that the cone itself is "leaking" rear radiation. Not to claim it doesn't exist but if such leakage truly was a major problem then compression drivers would have to be deemed completely useless due to their rear chamber no?

I also use dipole mids and bass drivers and love them dearly, but I have to admit, the perceived extra clarity may have to do just as much with the power response of the dipole (read: less total radiated bass energy than from a box assuming identical on axis FR) as it does with box modes. And I did not find it easy either to equalize the u-frame modes away even though I use a very shallow and wide u-frame (24wx40hx7"d).
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Old 11th April 2009, 07:00 AM   #5190
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It would be interesting actually to hear and measure the output of any particular cabinet by totally isolating it from the frontal output of the speaker by means of, for example, clamping the speaker to an appropriate sized weather-strip-sealed aperture in a cement walled soundproof room into which the speaker drivers and port fired.
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