Beyond the Ariel

[Lynn Olson]

Originally posted by planet10
If the Tannoys are to be considered, the 12" (in a can -- CMS12TDC) is probably in keeping with Lynn's goals, has a paper cone instead of a plastic (i had a set of the 8" in the Dimension cabinets, while good, i prefer a set of Fonkens)... Still i'd love to have a set of the 4s to play with. The pricing should be -- based on 2000 pricing that i have ($650 USD/pr) -- in the same general ballpark of many of the drivers being considered.

Note that to get these, you have to be an "installer/dealer" so a group buy would need to revolve around one of these (even if it is one of use, just signing up to do this one buy)

dave

Yes, the Tannoy CMS12 TDC looks interesting. Too bad, like the TAD professional drivers, there's no curves, which would tell us so much.

I heard the 6.5" consumer version of the Tannoy a few years back at the CES - and mmhh - it was just sort of OK. No big-driver magic, just another audiophile-balanced speaker, with pretty typical small-driver dynamics. It didn't do any of the holographic whiz-bang 3D things like the exotics, or even my speakers, which do the 3D hyperspace thing quite nicely.

The little Tannoy sounded like an entry-level audiophile speaker, like NHT or Boston Acoustics or similar. I was kind of disappointed, really, since I was expecting the single-point source would have MBL-type imaging. Nope, not there, just sort of generic image quality, and not the last word in smoothness or resolution at all (single-driver speakers way ahead there). Nothing stood out, really, and I was a bit surprised it sounded the way it did. I was expecting/hoping for that 12 or 15-inch Tannoy Monitor Gold magic, but it wasn't there.

It did make me wonder if the good engineers who designed the classic speakers had left the company, since engineers always like to leave their "stamp" on the sound of a company's products. Anyone that hears my speakers or electronics will hear what I'm aiming for, and it hasn't changed that much since I designed the Shadow Vector quadraphonic decoder - very deep-sounding with smooth, continuous soundfield with no sharp boundaries, vivid tonality, and a strong sense of being right there at the original performance. I aim for that - don't always get there, but that's the goal.

Other engineers aim for other things - the classic Tannoy sound, to me, is big and vivid, a sort of "right-there" quality, very impressionistic tone colors, image quality on the diffuse side, no extra-width effects, but a strong sense of "presence", but without the raucous and harsh presentation of the West Coast Altec/JBL sound. I'm not sure there is even a "Tannoy Sound" anymore - I have dinky little Tannoy HT speakers, but frankly, they sound pretty awful, not much like Tannoy at all.

But maybe they reserve the traditional sound for the Tokyo market at astronomical prices, and aim the other speakers at other markets. They're a big company, after all. Which leaves the sound of the CMS12 TDC an open question - sure would help to have response curves of the LF and HF drivers by themselves, as we have with other prosound vendors, even if it ain't the prettiest thing to look at.

[planet10]

Originally posted by Lynn Olson
From my own experience, I would rule out Fostex drivers. The factory FR curves are unreliable, and the violent response that's really there is almost uncorrectable by crossover network - many peaks and dips, and response curves like a 6 x 9 car speaker. Plus, they sound pretty awful in every speaker I've heard - raucous, harsh, and seem to "flat-top" dynamically around 95 dB.

Have you ever heard any of the smaller ones? I turned a few heads of people who had pretty much that same experience, having them come up after demoing the Fonkens (FE127e) and say that they had never heard a Fostex they liked before -- and now with treated drivers they are better yet. Bud has a pair now to see if his process can further improve the driver.

This one doesn't fall into your efficiency requirements thou.

dave

[Lynn Olson]

Originally posted by dmason
Lynn

Nothing at all scientific, a pair of TT 10 popped out of a Fender Twin and mounted on a baffle, using an EMU 1616 PEQ patch, VERY impressed with the clean, smooth, and ultra-musical reach of the TT 10 Alnico. Clearly higher reach than that indicated on your graph. ...TT send their drivers out for independent analysis, and I explained to them at NAMM that FR plots would be useful for the non-rockers interested in their wares. I am a strong believer in these two drivers.

OK, I see three 10-inch drivers over at Tone Tubby site. The Alnico, the Ceramic 40/40, and the new Super Boy Bass driver (ceramic). I'm drawn to the Alnico, of course, but the Theile/Small efficiency is a bit on the low side, 94.6 dB/metre with 2.83V rms excitation. The high Qts of 1.39 points towards a magnet that needs to be a bit stronger, or at least focus more gausses in the gap. Frustratingly, the other two ceramic-magnet drivers are quite a bit more efficient, at 98 (40/40) and 97 (Bass) dB/metre with 2.83 V rms excitation.

Out of curiousity, when you were at the NAMM show, which driver was it? The gloss-red Alnico, the British-racing-green Ceramic 40/40, or the Super Boy for Bass in black?

I'd be the first to admit that hemp cones really are the thing - so much better than those awful carbon-fiber, Kevlar, and metal cones, and they bring a whole new dimension to paper, getting rid of the "cone cry" and compression of ordinary cones.

[planet10]

Originally posted by Lynn Olson
Too bad there are no curves, which would tell us so much.

I suspect that this data may well be in the EASE file downloads -- but i can't figure out what software reads the files -- they aren't text, but there is enuff text to imply they are dat fles for a piece of software called ease -- google does turn up a couple hits but they don't seem appropriate.

dave

[dmason]

These were the Alnico 10. I wasnt interested in the ceramic jobs, and am equally frustrated with their higher SPL rating. The guys at TT seem to be in love with SuperBoy 10 for whatever reason; they put some in for Chris Squire and now he is the "poster boy" for this bass driver, and Ampeg followed on, with the SB10 as an option in their bass cabs. Sales took off. SuperBoy would work well too, I would imagine.

They also have their hands on some innovative ribbon driver which they are playing around with here in SD, mated to the 6.5 midwoof, and especially the 8 inch .... so absolutely, the 8 inch is in line for some sort of scaled down invention.

The Alnico 12&10 are the schnitz IMO, and NOTHING I have heard can touch the gestalt of the big cone HempTone. Except maybe the smaller ones....

Off topic, I have a pair of prototype 4.5 with Nd magnets, and they too are extremely nice.

[agent.5]

Any idea when the 15" "Super Boy" Tone Tubby will be available?

[Lynn Olson]

Originally posted by dmason
These were the Alnico 10. I wasnt interested in the ceramic jobs, and am equally frustrated with their higher SPL rating.

The Alnico 12&10 are the schnitz IMO, and NOTHING I have heard can touch the gestalt of the big cone HempTone. Except maybe the smaller ones....

Off topic, I have a pair of prototype 4.5 with Nd magnets, and they too are extremely nice.

Well, I have to report the 12" Alnico TT with no crossover at all was simply stunning, with beautiful tonality and "tactility", and vocals were surprisingly good despite some forwardness - I was surprised at the 5 dB elevation for the 1.5 to 5 kHz region, it didn't sound like that much on audition. Kind of the opposite of an MTM, which measures good and sounds like ----.

One of my more perverse thoughts on EQ-ing the 12" with its crazy plateau was to "build up" the frequencies below 1.5 kHz, instead of attenuating the 1.5 to 5 kHz range. EQ-ing a speaker, especially passively, can rob it of life and sparkle, which would be tragic with something with the immediacy of the 12" Alnico TT (something the Alnico TT shares with the best Lowthers).

The "building-up" could be done by running the 12" TT full range, no attenuation, no nothing, and having another driver of good quality come in just below with a 1.2 kHz 12 dB/oct lowpass filter. Working together, they would produce a nice even 102 dB/metre over the full working range, and with no requirement to EQ the main 12" driver at all.

This technique might even work with the 10" driver, since I would bet the range above 1 kHz is elevated, maybe not as much as the 12" TT, but elevated all the same. This gives you a de facto higher efficiency, since the T/S efficiency is now dominated by two drivers in parallel, and one where directivity effects start coming in to raise the midband efficiency.

You can see how the idea for overlapping crossovers developed for the dipole - instead of pulling down the response through EQ or crossover shaping, you add to it by bringing in other drivers to complement the areas where the "main" driver is sagging. Do a little vector math (when in-phase, voltages add) and it turns out that even a somewhat less efficient driver can "help out" by 1, 2, or 3 dB.

[agent.5]

Lynn,

what's your thought about the differences between the TT 12"

8 ohm ( Qts = 0.78, Fs = 80.3 Hz)

and

16 ohm ( Qts = 0.88; Fs = 76.9 Hz)

?

[Lynn Olson]

Originally posted by agent.5
Lynn,

what's your thought about the differences between the TT 12"

8 ohm ( Qts = 0.78, Fs = 80.3 Hz)

and

16 ohm ( Qts = 0.88; Fs = 76.9 Hz)

?

Two differences: the heavier VC is going to roll off earlier, maybe be a little bumpier at the top of the range (VC mass is parasitic and does nothing good for the cone). Bu this usually isn't a big deal unless you're talking Lowther with its ultralight cone.

The other difference is the efficiency as driven by a 2.83V rms source - this is the dB/metre efficiency spec of interest. Even tube amps are mostly voltage sources, so dB/volts is of more interest than dB/watts, which are only meaningful if each driver has its own personal variable-ratio transformer.

The 16-ohm VC certainly makes life simpler if you're planning on pairs, as for example the bass module of the new speaker.

Moving on to more general topics, I can easily see a mix of 18Sound and TT drivers for the new system - 10's, 12's and 15's, or pairs of 12's for the bass module. Although the two vendors are totally different - one retro and one modern - they're both very good at what they do.

[swak]

What properties (or combination of) make Hemp such a good material for speaker cones? I mean, fiber length, tensile strength/weight, etc? I ask, because there are other "hemps" other than cannabis sativa hemp (Yucca, Bowstring, Manila, etc) which surpass "hemp" on some points.

Lynn: you have mentioned you like alnico more than ceramic magnets (immediacy, that "certain something"). What is your take on Neodymium?


The TT drivers may be worth every penny (musically) but from the web site pics (specially the chassis) they seem to me a little pricey.