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Old 27th October 2008, 12:24 AM   #4601
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
There is no end of the hypothesis that one can make about "problems" in loudspeakers. What one has to do is to "close the loop" by showing their significance in terms of audibility.


No, its not a "hypothesis" - its plain physics (science is happening "here and now" remember?)


And also no not my part actually, to verify audibility before I state the obvious - an other white area on the map of psycho acoustics


And yes everybody is invited to watch out for correlating his subjective experiences / perception with the above




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Old 27th October 2008, 02:13 AM   #4602
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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"And also no not my part actually, to verify audibility "

As I said, the audibility test has already been done. You should read it.
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Old 27th October 2008, 09:27 AM   #4603
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Earl, if you tell me that *you* can't hear what I was presenting I am fine with that.
It simply means *my* ear brain system is tuned "different" from yours.


On the other hand I invite everybody (you included, Earl) to discuss the topic I brought up.
I'm actually not interested what a somebody writes in *any* paper, telling me what I *can't* hear / detect. and again Earl - I am asking you to drop that DampfWalzen habit.
Truth is subjective depending on perception (remember?)


I always found that tweeters without rear chamber didn't sound right to me.
I am not claiming to be as experienced on compression drivers then many others here but to the ones I have been "in depth" working with - the same specific quality applies.

What I experience with my completely front / back symmetrically AMT right now is the *complete* absence of that sonic pattern when operating with the back open.


The physics presented above don't "tell the whole story" for sure, but give me a comfortable handle on the subject.

And besides that, anybody who wants to claim different glues on the VC / different surrounding materials / different absolute phase / different .... may be easier "detectable" than what with ease can be calculated ?


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Old 27th October 2008, 10:00 AM   #4604
poptart is offline poptart  Canada
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Truth is subjective? I don't understand this. For example: "The earth orbits the sun not the other way around." What possible subjective opinion could one have about this truth?

I'm not going to take what one person tells me I can and can not hear as the truth either but Earl is referring to a controlled scientific experiment with many listeners. If you read the paper and have concerns about how the experiment was conducted or disagree with the interpretation of the data it generated that's one thing, but to dismiss it as meaningless because it's "in any paper" seems unreasonable. Where would we be with attitudes like that? You certainly wouldn't be typing messages on a computer about speaker design. A lot of very non-subjective truths were discovered to make that clip along at over a million operations per second.
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Old 27th October 2008, 10:16 AM   #4605
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Quote:
Originally posted by poptart
Truth is subjective? I don't understand this. For example: "The earth orbits the sun not the other way around." What possible subjective opinion could one have about this truth?

OT excursion:

Are you sure about that? - I'm not referring to historic development of perception of "truth" on that topic though


Consider the following:
Take the earth and the sun - and take away all the rest of the planets / suns / moons / .. in universe.
Leave sun and earth to be the only masses left in universe - and now tell me - which is orbiting which ?



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Old 27th October 2008, 10:43 AM   #4606
poptart is offline poptart  Canada
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Obviously I am a computer programmer not a philosopher, I like my truth to come in 1 or 0.

Re-imagining the universe or simply staring at the television and stating that it's off when everyone can clearly see it's on isn't going to help us build better speakers though. I do believe the universe exists independent of my own existence and that there are then truths that exist independent of my perceptions or beliefs about them. I can't imagine living my life believing that things existed simply because I decided they did. As I said I'm not a philosopher so I honestly don't know, what happens to morality when you decided all truth is up to you? Or what about a much simpler case, 1+1=2? Or 1 volt across 1 ohm will draw one amp? We would be paralyzed as speaker builders if we did not accept these things as truth.
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Old 27th October 2008, 10:46 AM   #4607
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Quote:
Originally posted by mige0



To put things into perspective, I set up a quick and simplified simulation.



Michael


Those were interesting simulations Michael. The problem I have is that if I set up an experiment to verify your idea I don't measure anything that looks like that. I think to show what is happening it is necessary to use realistic approximations. Make some measurements and look for HD and IM side bands. These things need to be quantified.
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Old 27th October 2008, 11:05 AM   #4608
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Originally posted by john k...


Those were interesting simulations Michael. The problem I have is that if I set up an experiment to verify your idea I don't measure anything that looks like that. I think to show what is happening it is necessary to use realistic approximations. Make some measurements and look for HD and IM side bands. These things need to be quantified.

Thanks, John.
I certainly will do some measurements as time allows.

It should be possible to measure the effect in the time domain as well - maybe even more easily.
As this behaviour is strongly repetitive, we should be able to get significant results with averaging if the frequencies involved are set properly what you think?


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Old 27th October 2008, 11:12 AM   #4609
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Quote:
Originally posted by poptart
Truth is subjective? I don't understand this. For example: "The earth orbits the sun not the other way around." What possible subjective opinion could one have about this truth?

I'm not going to take what one person tells me I can and can not hear as the truth either but Earl is referring to a controlled scientific experiment with many listeners. If you read the paper and have concerns about how the experiment was conducted or disagree with the interpretation of the data it generated that's one thing, but to dismiss it as meaningless because it's "in any paper" seems unreasonable. Where would we be with attitudes like that? You certainly wouldn't be typing messages on a computer about speaker design. A lot of very non-subjective truths were discovered to make that clip along at over a million operations per second.
Yes, "truth" can be subjective when the subjects of a study/experiment have all been raised in a culture based on "western music". It does not address the possibility that subjects from other cultures may have responded differently. This shouldn't be confused with the examples that you gave, which are from the hard sciences.
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Old 27th October 2008, 01:33 PM   #4610
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Quote:
Originally posted by mige0



Thanks, John.
I certainly will do some measurements as time allows.

It should be possible to measure the effect in the time domain as well - maybe even more easily.
As this behaviour is strongly repetitive, we should be able to get significant results with averaging if the frequencies involved are set properly what you think?


Michael
Before I comment further, can you provide a little detail of your sims? Specifically, the source for the VC voltage appears to be a pure sign wave, buy not being familiar with the software you are using would you please explain what the notation SFFM(0 1 2000 1 100) means?
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