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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 26th September 2008, 02:59 PM   #4461
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I think the bass modules use 3 15" pro sound woofers which indicates a great deal of sensitivity and perhaps no need for high powered amplifiers of any type.

I am looking forward to hearing these, but I am worried it may spoil me for much else.

Chris
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Old 26th September 2008, 03:25 PM   #4462
AR2 is offline AR2  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by chrismercurio
I think the bass modules use 3 15" pro sound woofers which indicates a great deal of sensitivity and perhaps no need for high powered amplifiers of any type.

I am looking forward to hearing these, but I am worried it may spoil me for much else.

Chris

Ha, think twice. It uses 5 15" woofers in each bass enclosure. I believe those are Beyma drivers. Alex told me that he has never heard such a powerful and undistorted bass. No wonder with total 10 15" drivers.
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Old 26th September 2008, 03:44 PM   #4463
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I don't doubt it.

I'm using a sub with dual 18's and mains each with a single 15" and have to say it is a lot of fun to move that kind of air in a small space even with very little power to either.
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Old 26th September 2008, 04:31 PM   #4464
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"Bass - the new midrange"?
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Old 26th September 2008, 05:02 PM   #4465
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Hmmm.

I've lived with Jordans (4"), Mangers (8"), Eton (4") and now GPA/Altec.

I'm leaning towards large format mids and the efficiency as well as surface area afforded by such. There is obviously more than one way to skin the cat, but overall I like what I'm hearing.

I don't think of "Bass" as the new midrange. They are simply larger format drivers than are commonly used in hifi speakers.

Chris
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Old 26th September 2008, 08:13 PM   #4466
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
Michael, I doubt I'll be won over by the T and D-amps I've heard so far, and Class AB silicon doesn't really endear me either. [/B]
I already felt absolutely sure about that.

Why I stick with class A/B is a simple calculation. Assume a silicon 40 W class A - somewhere in the range of your Karna these will have about 200W idle heat dissipation. Multiply this by 12 and you arrive at 2.4kW
In summer I would need air condition and noise would raise at levels music listening no longer would be fun.

On the other hand the amps I have already I'm very happy with at least from a cerebral point of view - with some room left for improvement in the emotional department which is in the pipe already.



Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
Since I really don't want to go over the top on amplifiers, I'm trying to keep complexity of the overall system down - basically, a a fairly classical 2-way with extensions that cover the range below the baffle peak (300 Hz) and above the mass rolloff of the compression driver (3 kHz).

Most of all, I want to avoid digital equalization and time delay, since finding studio-grade DACs and clock-control systems is no small project, and mid-grade DACs can limit the overall resolution of the system.
[/B]

The whole digital stuff isn't that much annoying it can degrade sound yes, of course like everything else (parts quality, layout, ...) - but also not necessarily. The advantages outweigh the risk by far (for me).


Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
I'm looking forward to the arrival of the AH-425, and trying out the suggestions that appeared in this thread a few weeks ago about freely suspending the bass drivers so the mechanical reaction forces don't shove the open baffles around. The more I think about it, the more appealing it is - unlike a closed or vented box where even very small leaks grossly alter the LF response, with an open baffle, a "leak" between the freely suspended driver and the enlarged opening of the OB isn't going to change the response much at all.

Going further, hanging the driver from a simple tubular frame has the significant advantage of keeping the emission area of the "enclosure" to an absolute minimum - the smaller the area for a given acceleration, the less the acoustic emission. This minimum-area framework could be one of the unsuspected advantages of an electrostatic loudspeaker - no cabinet coloration because, well, there's no cabinet!
[/B]
Very much interested to hear about your findings.

The main idea behind the concept of flying speakers in our context is that whatever structure you use to hold your speaker in place it kicks back !
Basically every structure is a resonant part by itself.
An analogy to the issue with back EMF from the speaker to the amp.
It would be a pretty hard job to determine HOW EXACTLY the structure kicks back. quite in contrary to flying where the HOW is of little interest as attenuation of movement is very high.


The solution isn't to try to improve stability of the structure to keep the speaker from moving its just the other way around: allow the speaker move as free as possible to let the impulse balance locally and then isolate the structure from the speakers forces / movements with a suitable suspension or like a pendulum.

Its really easy to keep pendulum resonance way below the audio band, even for deep bass.

If flying your speakers its best to use a 3 or 4 point technique to avoid stimulating totter movements.

Currently I am flying only the mid's pretty happy with the results.
Double 15" bass' ( at 90 degree angle with "split excursion" to compensate for power response ) had to wait and are still "conventional" sitting on the floor, as doubling our roof's isolation was at first priority driven by peak oil prices and the first snow in the upper mountains.

By the way AMT's are the only speakers I'm aware of that have impulse compensation built in (plasma's left aside).
The diaphragm folds are moving to both sides impulse-compensating each other completely - leaving only the acceleration of the very low air mass as an axial impulse.


Greetings
Michael

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Old 26th September 2008, 09:50 PM   #4467
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Lynn,
Any suggestions about parametric eq device You will by using ?


Best
C
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Old 26th September 2008, 09:53 PM   #4468
DaveCan is offline DaveCan  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
[
Alexander and I were not that impressed with the sound we heard at last year's show - with the exception of the Feastrex and the Audio Kinesis - but I expect his new speaker is going to surprise people. [/B]
Would it be possible to get more info on your impression of what you heard from Feastrex , and which driver(s) etc?.. I've been very interested in their D5nf driver,( cheapest but still$$$$) Thanks for any input.. Dave
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Old 26th September 2008, 10:25 PM   #4469
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I'm looking at the Rane or similar pro-quality analog parametric equalizer. That's what Wally Malewicz was using for his bi-amplified speaker (on the bass channel), and I thought they sounded wonderful.

The issue of mechanical reaction forces coming from the driver certainly needs more investigation - I guess I'll be buying an accelerometer in addition to the Aco Pacific 1/2" 7012 microphone I already have.

People usually think of the mass ratio between the diaphragm and the much larger mass of the cabinet or open baffle, but there's more to it than that. At frequencies where the cabinet or open baffle goes into resonance, this mass ratio is overshadowed by the sharp change in mechanical impedance of the resonating body, and the acoustical output of the cabinet or open baffle goes up hundreds of times (compared to the emission at non-resonant frequencies). Almost all of the acoustical output of the cabinet or open baffle is at the mechanical resonance frequencies, and very little at other frequencies. In effect, the trouble frequencies fall in the 200 to 800 Hz range, with little to no emission elsewhere.

Freely suspending the driver from rubber bands or bungee cords (at 3 or 4 points, as mentioned previously) acts as a lowpass filter, preferably set well below the bandpass of the driver. This is not too different than a turntable suspension tuned to a frequency well below the 7~9 Hz tonearm/cartridge resonance, typically 3~4 Hz. It is desirable to keep the resonance above the rhythms of the music, so 3 Hz is a realistic minimum for the suspension.

I'm looking closely at 2 or 3 of the AESpeakers Dipole 15's per side in a close-fitting array, with the Selenium 15PW3's as an alternative. If anyone from AESpeakers is reading this, what are the Xmax, Qts, Fs, normalized efficiency, and pricing of the Dipole15's again? Can't find it on the AESpeakers website right now.

Regarding the Feastrex, you can think of them as super Lowthers, and priced accordingly. They have several dB more headroom than a Lowther, and don't hit the wall quite as hard - but it's not fair to reflex or rear-horn-loaded Lowther, AER or Feastrex to compare them to front-horn loudspeakers, which have 10 to 15 dB more headroom. I've never heard a front-horn Feastrex, and don't know if anyone has built one.

Any full-range loudspeaker, particularly with whizzer-cone HF, is so idiosyncratic I would never buy them without an extensive audition with CD's and LP's that you know well - these speakers are not for everyone, and you have to decide for yourself if the compromises are acceptable to you. The big plus of full-rangers is exceptional midrange coherence, and the downside is whizzer coloration and early HF breakup - and this is an area where the Feastrex is decisively better than any other whizzer-cone driver.
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Old 26th September 2008, 11:13 PM   #4470
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Parameters and pricing:

http://aespeakers.com/shop/catalog/p...products_id=55

http://www.aespeakers.com/drivers.php?driver_id=8
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