Pooh and Pano,
I think that we have to get a little more specific when we are talking about horn loading. The real loading of a compression driver is happening at the diaphragm to phasing plug interface. This is where we have a 10 to 1 ratio of diaphragm area to slot opening. The loading after that from an exponential horn vs a conic horn is fairly well limited to the lower frequency limit set by mouth size and length. Yes it does add some loading I will give you that but not over the majority of the bandwidth that the device is working. It is very narrow in its loading and unless you are using the horn down to its 1/4 wave cutoff I don't know if it is a great deal of difference. I however am more interested in the claims of constant directivity of a conic horn section, I don't find that it is a fact as stated that directivity is constant across the entire bandwidth in that instance. There is much bs in how things are presented in the way things work, but who am I to correct the misinformation.
I think that we have to get a little more specific when we are talking about horn loading. The real loading of a compression driver is happening at the diaphragm to phasing plug interface. This is where we have a 10 to 1 ratio of diaphragm area to slot opening. The loading after that from an exponential horn vs a conic horn is fairly well limited to the lower frequency limit set by mouth size and length. Yes it does add some loading I will give you that but not over the majority of the bandwidth that the device is working. It is very narrow in its loading and unless you are using the horn down to its 1/4 wave cutoff I don't know if it is a great deal of difference. I however am more interested in the claims of constant directivity of a conic horn section, I don't find that it is a fact as stated that directivity is constant across the entire bandwidth in that instance. There is much bs in how things are presented in the way things work, but who am I to correct the misinformation.
Dunno about conical horns although i have heard a Danley clone and it was very good sounding. Yes horns load over a limited range that's why most horny types like me use 4, 5, or 6 ways.
Pooh,
I find I can cover from 600hz on up with only two horns. One cone driver and the other with a compression driver. Both have identical mouth shapes an even coverage angle and I can stay away from all the other problems that multiple horns and integration create. I just use a direct radiator below the 600hz cutoff of the mid horn and that works for me.
I find I can cover from 600hz on up with only two horns. One cone driver and the other with a compression driver. Both have identical mouth shapes an even coverage angle and I can stay away from all the other problems that multiple horns and integration create. I just use a direct radiator below the 600hz cutoff of the mid horn and that works for me.
When you get down lower you tend to need to split them up more because they have to fit in the room, door ways, folds limit bandwith ect
What cone driver do you use in your midhorn and what range does it cover? I have done that before and liked the results but currently use compression drivers 350 cycles and up.
Buzzford,
I'll do that later when I get the camera back from my daughter. The midrange horn is the interesting one as it is actually loading the driver by 25% with a very small sound chamber before the flare. It also has a sealed back chamber but I don't have on here to take a picture of. It will let the horn run down to about 400hz if you push it but I try not to do that if possible. You can see a poor picture of three horns in my avatar. I top horn was just to add a little sparkle to the top end above 10khz that I used at the time.
Steven
Got to go out for a little while and get the daughter and then I will catch up to the conversation.
I'll do that later when I get the camera back from my daughter. The midrange horn is the interesting one as it is actually loading the driver by 25% with a very small sound chamber before the flare. It also has a sealed back chamber but I don't have on here to take a picture of. It will let the horn run down to about 400hz if you push it but I try not to do that if possible. You can see a poor picture of three horns in my avatar. I top horn was just to add a little sparkle to the top end above 10khz that I used at the time.
Steven
Got to go out for a little while and get the daughter and then I will catch up to the conversation.
How do you get 107 db sensitivy out of a direct radiator? Impossible onless it has very very limited bandwith. Who's making up what and why would a manufacture lie like that on a public forum? Listen to your system? I never mentioned I did or wanted to? Fantasy Island???
I didn't say sensitivity. Who cares about sensitivity once it is above about 95 dB. I am talking about MaxSPL, which is all that matters. Very high sensitivity may be useful in an auditorium but not in a home.
If we are talking about "classic" horns like exponential, no they have no real directivity control over any frequency range. I assumed that's what was meant by "real horns", although admittedly I never really knew what was meant.
I do not see distortion being a factor in any frequency range in home use, so no it makes no difference.
And for what it is worth I don't sell waveguides.
LOL, you are talking in circles, I say 107 db sensitivety and you claim yours is more, then you say you mean max SPL, make up your mid or please read and think before you respond. It made you look like a liar.
Maximum SPL is easy, that's what the poor deaf kids go for in their cars, nobody that cares about fidelity cares much about that.
High sensitivity (like 107 db/w/m 30 hz up) means a whole lot to me, it presents the micro details in relationship to the big transients in a way low sensitivity speakers like your speakers can't do.
Pooh,
I agree that high sensitivity is nice and I don't know any direct radiators that can come close to say a compression driver but there are some good direct radiators with low distortion and high output capabilities. The real problem with very high sensitivity compression drivers on horns is that often a fairly high output amplifier is attached to them. Since they are so high efficiency you will be using the amplifier at very low output, meaning you are in the worst signal to noise area of the amplifier when it is turned so low. So you really need to use low powered amplifiers to drive the compression drivers to a normal listening level and get into the sweet spot on the S/N curve of the amp. And it is obvious that running an amplifier down in the 1/3 power output range is the hardest drive on the amplifier and this is why the testing of amplifier quality is usually done at this level to see how hot it is going to run and see if it will thermal cycle. It always comes back to the system design and each component used as best as possible rather than pure brute force.
I agree that high sensitivity is nice and I don't know any direct radiators that can come close to say a compression driver but there are some good direct radiators with low distortion and high output capabilities. The real problem with very high sensitivity compression drivers on horns is that often a fairly high output amplifier is attached to them. Since they are so high efficiency you will be using the amplifier at very low output, meaning you are in the worst signal to noise area of the amplifier when it is turned so low. So you really need to use low powered amplifiers to drive the compression drivers to a normal listening level and get into the sweet spot on the S/N curve of the amp. And it is obvious that running an amplifier down in the 1/3 power output range is the hardest drive on the amplifier and this is why the testing of amplifier quality is usually done at this level to see how hot it is going to run and see if it will thermal cycle. It always comes back to the system design and each component used as best as possible rather than pure brute force.
Pooh,
I originally used a Polydax PR17 driver in the mid-range horn but I am building my own drivers now so would probably make one specifically for that use. I used that horn from 4-600hz up to 1.5Khz and then went into a smaller high frequency horn with a 1" compression driver covering the upper range. My current 6 1/2" is made to do down to 36hz and up to 2.5khz and I would want to change it some to use in the mid-range as I wouldn't need the excursion or the bandwidth that wide.
I originally used a Polydax PR17 driver in the mid-range horn but I am building my own drivers now so would probably make one specifically for that use. I used that horn from 4-600hz up to 1.5Khz and then went into a smaller high frequency horn with a 1" compression driver covering the upper range. My current 6 1/2" is made to do down to 36hz and up to 2.5khz and I would want to change it some to use in the mid-range as I wouldn't need the excursion or the bandwidth that wide.
Hello Buzzforb
They are modernized Bi Radials and have a narrower throat at the transition. You can see the difraction slot as in the original 2343/2344. The photo is of an Array Horn just turn it on it's side.
Rob
There it is. Couple fellas on audio heritage did pretty good job o cloingthat baby. Asked for plans multiple times, but no response. Also beautiful dd6600 Everest there as well. I don't thin Gedlee is speaking anything but the truth about his products and research. Beautiful and hard earned information. They probably sound wonderfully. I am just not in the camp that says this horn or that waveguide is superior because of X. It simply leaves out the most important pat of the equation. The listener. Which is an individual with individual taste.
I find it difficult to get the proper phase plug for cone midrange horns. Whatever I used or built they still beamed too much, that is why I like to go to a well designed compression driver and cross over in the lower vocal range - around 300 cycles. What do you use for your phasing plug for your cone driven midrange? Also when i use cones in horns I try and keep the driver electrical Q low and the resonance high. It never occurred to me to use a low fs (36) cone in a midhorn. Why do you do that?
Some old Sanyo opamps biased into class A for the first 5=6 watts works good, need a very quiet power supply too if you want the low level detail and black velvet back ground
Pooh,
I said I wouldn't use the 6 1/2" that I have with those parameters, I would change them for a midrange. I don't use a phasing plug in my horn design, it is a loaded design, there is a small chamber in front of the driver loading it 25%. Most cone drivers on horns are used unloaded and that is why you have the beaming problems. There is no real coupling between the diaphragm and the horn, they are usually to large and never create a loading on the diaphragm.
I just don't like the sound of any compression driver that low, it give that horn sound that is just so identifiable and is instantly recognized as a compression driver on a horn. Even a 2" exit driver has this affect and that is why you never see that in even pro audio anymore, that is something we have gotten away from for a long time now. A cone just sounds much better on a horn if you insist on going that low with a horn.
I said I wouldn't use the 6 1/2" that I have with those parameters, I would change them for a midrange. I don't use a phasing plug in my horn design, it is a loaded design, there is a small chamber in front of the driver loading it 25%. Most cone drivers on horns are used unloaded and that is why you have the beaming problems. There is no real coupling between the diaphragm and the horn, they are usually to large and never create a loading on the diaphragm.
I just don't like the sound of any compression driver that low, it give that horn sound that is just so identifiable and is instantly recognized as a compression driver on a horn. Even a 2" exit driver has this affect and that is why you never see that in even pro audio anymore, that is something we have gotten away from for a long time now. A cone just sounds much better on a horn if you insist on going that low with a horn.
I misunderstood, i wondered why anybody would use a low fs driver in midhorn. Front chambers I like in bass horn because they are for limiting bandwith in the upper end. Normally in a midhorn you want to get up higher then front chambers allow. Back chambers I find are pretty irrelevant in horns above 300 cycles, but front chambers always compromise the top end of the response.
When you use a compression driver in a 2 foot deep 30" wide horn with a 4" dome and a 220 HZ flare it works fine down to 350 cycles. If i was to try and mate it with a low efficiency direct radiator like a 98 db/w 15 it does not mate up because the bass sucks compared to the midrange. that's why I use bass horns. I do not want to say what you are doing "sucks" because the moderators say i am being bad, so I will say if you think it is good it is good.