Beyond the Ariel

jzagaja said:
Lynn - I don't understand people who looks for a reproduced sound that involves emotionally. It's a typical audiophile mania to chase the rabbit. For me life is simple - I'm doing my personal recordings of live concerts and looking for close reproduction. For me Jordan drivers do the job perfectly for the money. If a person is not interested in live music then it is a good idea of using headphones to hear how a perfect speaker without resonances should work. Surprisingly most people won't chose this reproductors - they prefer colored sexy sound. Why? because they don't know how the musical instruments sounds in nature!

Have you seen Summa impulse and step?
Have you seen impulses before and after HOM reduction in Geddes OS waveguide?

I can send them private (they are too big for the forum).


Yes, please, very interested in seeing how HOM can be reduced via Geddes' method. I have 5 mbit broadband and a Mac Dual G5 with a 250 GB disk, file size is not an issue.

The Jordan's are interesting drivers, but suffer from very low efficiency and power-handling, and require notch-filter equalization to remove the upper-midband peaks from the aluminum driver. This means they have to be used in a large array if high SPLs at low distortion are desired - and one problem with a large vertical array is non-coincident arrival times. There are two solutions to this, both a bit on the awkward side:

1) Curving the driver array towards the listener. This designs-in a fixed listening distance, and I have reservations about intentionally creating a concave wavefront, something that almost never occurs in nature, where spherical, plane, or transitional waves are the norm. About the only thing I can imagine creating a concave wavefront would be to sit inside a drum, or maybe the focal point of a parabolic reflector. Neither sounds appealing.

2) Using the Quad ESL63 approach of a time-delayed array, using the same principles as a phased-array electronically steered radar. The first sound emits from the innermost driver, and the sound from the outer layers are delayed just enough to synthesize a point-source array. This is do-able, as witnessed by the ESL63, but is extremely complex in the passive or active-equalization domain.

The issues I'm talking about are objective, not subjective. Low efficiency and low headroom are easily measured and easily audible. Similarly, non-coincident arrival is easily measured, and audible to some listeners (but not others). There are side effects that Solutions 1 and 2 create, and the audibility of these probably vary with the listener as well. As true everywhere in audio, TANSTAAFL applies: There Ain't There No Such Thing As A Free Lunch (credit to Heinlein). Improve performance in one area, it goes away somewhere else.

The real task is system optimization for musical perception, which will differ to some degree for every listener. Differences between individual perception can be surprisingly large - I was told about 10 years that Canadian researchers working on audibility of different lossy-compression codecs for cell-phones made the astonishing discovery that lossy-compression audibility depended on the native language of the listener! THAT little finding never made it into the AES literature pushing the latest glamorous lossy-compression scheme. The dirty little secret of psychology is that the research population (that stands in for all of humanity) is in fact composed of graduate students - at the same school as the published research paper.

My overall goal is to design a speaker system with studio-level peak-SPL capability while retaining the spatial qualities of the best omni or dipole systems. I don't know at this time whether this is possible or not, just as I didn't know when I began the Amity amplifier in 1997 that a 1930's textbook all-transformer, all-triode, fully-balanced circuit would be any good or not. (At the time, I got zero support from the Northwest SET crowd, who were all using RC-coupled SET circuits drawn from Sound Practices magazine, and thought that transformer coupling and balanced circuits were for dummies.)

Keeping the two goals of high-SPL and wide-open image quality in mind, my last choice for a driver is one with low efficiency and low peak SPL capability, regardless of how good it sounds on audition. If I was willing to discard the peak-SPL design requirement, I'd just go out and buy a top-class full-range electrostatic and use it with the Karna amplifier, just plug it in, no design work needed.

But unlike many DIYers, I don't design things to save money, cloning this or that well-known speaker or amplifier. That doesn't interest me, because by and large, I don't care for the limitations of commercial products. That's why I designed the Ariel, Amity, Aurora, and Karna. There are no commercial equivalents to these designs.

Now I'm exploring whether I can combine all-horn dynamics with dipole/omni spatial qualities - and without going in the direction of a horn/omni system (a design challenge of a completely different sort). The initial exploration is showing promising results for hemp-composite cones and interesting possibilities for EnABL and Mamboni edge-damping techniques - which by the way would apply to aluminum-cone Jordan drivers as well. There is tremendous room for improvement in all drivers, especially in the time domain.

I'm not interested in "what is". I'm interested in "what can be". Buying high-end hifi doesn't give me much satisfaction - designing it, and hearing new things for the first time, does.
 
jzagaja said:
How can I send you the files? I've used Nutshellhifii addresses but I'm not sure if they are right now?

Jordan's equalisation is trivial with DSP - see appended picture.

As for the Jordan, umm, what if you don't want to pass the signal through an ADC/EQ/DAC conversion step (i.e. analog source, such as LP's and mag-tape). Being the triode nut I am, I am not in the all-electronics-sound-the-same camp - I've gone to some trouble to re-engineer commercial DACs so the analog stage immediately following the DAC has a minimum of a 1000V/uSec slew rate (the 5532/5534 used in many high-end commercial CD, SACD, and DVD-A players is 70 times slower than that). Re-engineering a commercial ADC just to cater to digital equalization is taking speaker design a little too far - I'd rather use drivers that can equalized passively, or better yet, don't need equalization at all.

Still hard to see how the Jordan gets to 115 dB without destruction of the voice coil. The Ariel makes it to 105dB, but I wouldn't dare push it past that.
 
Lynn.. for future reference with emails..

the forum has a private mail feature - typically (PM) that person and give them your email account through that (PM).. Usually you look through the members button above to select that person for a (PM).

In any event I'd ask a moderator to remove the last post (or edit it out - if you no longer can), obviously we are all crazy here - but you might get someone sending you emails that is/should be "instituted" :D .


..and yeah, Sven's adaptation is a thing of beauty (well to an audio nut anyway). I just wish that supravox's frame design was more like PHY.

Its interesting - that driver, incredible decay at higher freq.s until about 4.5kHz:

http://www.supravox.fr/anglais/mesures/mes400EXC4.htm

..most of supravox's drivers though have some serious vc (chamber) resonances that crop up around 900-1000 Hz. Here is Troels's semi solution to that: http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Supravox215GMF.htm
obviously different driver with different results though. Makes me wonder what BudP's results would be with the "pattern" - and using a higher "reactant to change" lamination boundary via some aluminum gilding leafs.
 
If you like the analogue sources and tube amps (I do also like them) then you will get a lot of additional colourations you must accept. Driver linearisation is then senseless.

I remember I've used strong MOSFET 200W amplifier with popular Dannish speaker with PP+tex cone. The sound was harsh and unpleasant ("quick" amplifier and "slow" drivers). KT88 push-pull typical design changed everything. Second harmonic distortions masked the higher one (if present I'm not sure). It is fine typical audiophile speaker but has no clarity and transparency of Jordans.

So you like perfect square wave DACs without ringing?

I don't know Jordans maximum SPL because I'm not interested - I'm living in student's house and can't play loud. I've found moderate levels ok for me. I remember Ted Jordan made DC tests and they should be able to disperse the heat well (all aluminium inside).

In USA you should be able to find big linear arrays made of Jordans or Bandors. One Arabic have ordered 1,5kW array!

Horn loading for Jordans appended. Phasing plug is a bit tricky for them. I think you can build "Quad ESL57 sound" by using horns as showed by Holland 15 years ago by using axisimetric "short" horn and good compression driver plus a big woofer - typical studio monitor. Nobody will distinguish in blind test...
 
If you like the analogue sources and tube amps (I do also like them) then you will get a lot of additional colourations you must accept. Driver linearisation is then senseless.
Can we debate tubes vs Solid State another time?
In USA you should be able to find big linear arrays made of Jordans or Bandors. One Arabic have ordered 1,5kW array!
There are trade-offs to Line arrays. There is some magic in good single driver implementations, but single drivers don't do everything well. Pay your money, take your choice.

I would suggest that you check out this page
The Art of Speaker Design

While you are at it, check out .The Amity, Raven, and Aurora

I have been experimenting with OB speakers for a while, and while I am sure I am not sensitive to all the subtleties that Lynn is (I think its a blessing and a curse) I will be very interested in what Lynn comes up with.

Lynn you may get a kick out of this thread. JBL L100 rebuild

Doug
 
Re: Hemp

chrismercurio said:
Hemp acoustics has updated the website with pdf's for many of the new drivers. It is exciting stuff!

Chris


How's the "updated" distribution network and delivery schedule?

It would appear to be easier to design and demonstrate prototypes of "awesome" sounding drivers for the DIY market than it is to actually get any quantity of them in to the hands of builders.

The politics and gamesmanship surrounding this particular maker, of which many are aware and too polite to address publicly, are getting a bit tiresome.

Happy to be proven wrong on this.........
 
Many thanks for the Geddes PowerPoint presentation - good to know the licensed version of the Geddes horn is going to manufactured in Thailand in the near future. I'm a little dismayed to hear that people are having trouble with availability of the Hemp Acoustics products - I might end up combining the big Chinese ribbon tweeter with the 12" Alnico Tone Tubby after all - at least it'll be simple to equalize, and will have that wonderful Alnico sound.

If the moderator is reading this thread, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE remove that e-mail address from my earlier posting. My crude e-mail concealment method won't resist the spambots for long, and the sooner it disappears from the forum, the less spam I'll get.

By the way, part of the reason for posting all this stuff is to get people having fun with dipoles, not just my ideas, but dipoles made with Lowther/AERs, Jordans, Eminence, and whatever driver tickles your fancy. Dipoles being the low-coloration enclosures they, you'll hear your favorite driver in all its glory, both good and bad.

It will be a while until I have access to my audio-design stuff, and can get back into the swing of things again. Rather than stew about my situation and feel sorry for myself (something I've had a lot of practice in since January 7th) I want to share my thoughts about hi-fi. I do have an ulterior motive - I'm kind of hoping people try out these ideas and can give me a bit of feedback when I'm ready to jump back into audio again.

In terms of gizmos I'm researching in the immediate future, I'm going to be mentioning this and that bone-regrowth devices to my surgeon on May 1st. These aren't made by New Age electronic-gizmo companies - they also make this and that charming implements that are in my leg right now. So my attention isn't 100% on hifi right now.

(Warning to the easily disturbed - don't click those last two links while you're eating dinner. I got the stainless-steel versions and a $45,000 hospital bill, fortunately paid-for by Kaiser Permanente. Next year I'm paying someone else to shovel the snow.)
 
My first post here…

Good to hear that your might be considering going back to the TT.
I’ve been playing around with the TT Alnico's for over the last 6 months (OB) crossed with NeoPro5i ribbon. The problem I have is physically off setting the ribbon back from the baffle board. I have a few crazy ideas in my head but can’t progress any further (broken hip from a cycling accident, so yes I also have lots of brackets and screws holding my hip together).

Currently I’m using two TT per side (as you mentioned a while ago), one as a bass helper. I’m still waiting on the 15” TT bass driver specs.

Frank.
 
More Hemp

I do not work for Hemp Acoustics. I have no affiliation with them at all. I can say that they have been extremely responsive to my inquiries about their product via phone and email. Regardless of what product/pricing is available on distributors websites, I have been able to get pricing and product information directly from Hemp Acoustics when I asked for it. This does not mean that I can buy direct from them, just that they were willing to provide ballpark retail figures. As far as I know the new drivers are available, so if you are so inclined, order them.

It is always a surprise to me when OEM manufacturers take time out of their day to address inquiries from the DIY community. In my opinion, we are not their market. I would be surprised if the total $'s we diy'ers comprise totals more than 1-2% of an OEM driver manufacturers' annual revenue.

My comments earlier about published specs finally being available on their site was simply to share with the group that they are there. I had been waiting for their site to be updated and thought others might be too.

Best,
 
Because I'm experimenting with binaural recordings it is good to cite here the story about Blumelin:

"Many of us have, however, heard recordings of stereo systems that do sometimes produce images that come from beyond the speakers and some audiophiles believe that if they could only get perfect recordings, speakers, cables and electronics, the image would open out. Blumlein was also loath to admit defeat on this point. He writes "but if it is desired to convey the impression that the sound source has moved to a position beyond the space between the loudspeakers the modifying networks may be arranged to reverse the phase of that loudspeaker remote from which the source is desired to appear, and this will suffice to convey the desired impression for the low frequency sound." (hang on to that word "low".) This suggestion makes sense in a particular movie scene where you could briefly reverse the phase of one speaker to move dialog or a sound effect off screen, but we know that leaving one speaker out-of-phase all the time does not work for music reproduction via the stereo triangle. What Blumlein was suggesting is a primitive form of logic steering thus foreshadowing Dolby Pro-Logic. But he has explained why sometimes images do appear beyond the position of the loudspeakers. Any inadvertent phase reversal of a spot microphone in recording or an out-of-phase driver, or a large phase shift in the crossover network of a three or four way loudspeaker system or a reflection from the wall behind a dipole loudspeaker can convince even experienced listeners that wider stages can be achieved, somehow, using normal stereo technology. Unfortunately, logic steering, surround coding and even multi-channel recording methods cannot achieve the binaural ideal that Blumlein was striving for."

Source:
http://www.ambiophonics.org/blumlein_conspiracy.htm
 
One of the nicest things about being an old fart is I no longer feel a need to defend my tastes in music and hifi. During the time I was doing reviews for Positive Feedback magazine, I discovered my tastes align with only about 2 to 5% of audiophiles, and I was most certainly out of sync with all the mainstream magazine reviews.

Well, I'm 30 and I don't really like modern hi-fi either... Last time I went in the shop to listen to stuff I was like "ergh. bleh !". Then I heard the kits. There was a nice lushy AMT tweeter paired with a 12" woofer. I told the guy the crossover was too high and the breakup modes made me want to cry blood from the ears. He told me that yeah, but people like the sound. Ha ! I don't.

Anyway, I experimented with dipoles myself and liked what I heard...

It was just a quick experiment, so I used a PC with digital crossover, a 8 way gainclone (since then it burnt) and the drivers I had lying around for other past projects that didn't work out :

- 15" pro sound from TVM acoustics (eastern europe) in H dipole baffles
- 14cm SEAS CB17/RCYP midranges
- Unnamed chinese ribbon tweeters

The really nice thing about digital crossover is that you can measure stuff and input your crossover curves in the computer at will, so it really is "rapid prototyping".
In about 2 hours I got something that was not perfect, but it was promising and had the characteristics of dipole sound :

- amazing clarity and punch in the bass (no room modes !), although a bit dry
- no box sound in the midrange, very lively and enjoyable
- really good dynamics (active system with digital crossover...)

So the experment was a success. However :

- Size of the midrange driver is a problem ; the H baffle for woofers has a large resonance peak above the usable bandwidth so you must use a rather steep lowpass. This means the midrange driver must also double as a midbass driver ; for a dipole this means you need surface and displacement, or a very large panel. These 14 cm drivers were too small, so they were never able to really meet the woofers, and male singers voices sucked. I also tried them in sealed enclosures, well, I prefer dipoles.
- It looked too messy with all the wires so it had to go out of my living room ;)

For the midrange panel I used plywood ; this vibrates nicely as the panel edges flap like wings. Then I tried a sandwich of roof tar between two sheets of 10mm MDF : very dead, no resonances.

I'll try to rebuild these someday, but first I have other stuff (http://audio.peufeu.com).

Anyway, please consider active crossover for the woofer. It's worth it, especially for a dipole.
 
frugal-phile™
Joined 2001
Paid Member
Re: More Hemp

chrismercurio said:
As far as I know the new drivers are available, so if you are so inclined, order them.

I went to order some 4.5s yesterday -- they won't be in till later in the month. This one is interesting as it looks to be a drop-in replacement for the FE127e which has lots of existing enclosure designs (and to stay on topic) would work fine in an OB with a helper woof (might not have the dynamic capability of some of the larger drivers, but i bet, better mids and no need for a tweeter.

dave
 
Lynn and others,

The Tone Tubby alnico drivers were mentioned. They look like great drivers and I have heard wonderful things about alnico drivers, but my understanding is that anlico drivers will distort at lower spls than ceramic. I may have read the information wrong. I believe Lynn mentioned liking the higher spl capabilities of pro drivers. Would the TT alnico drivers be able to reach spls close to where Hemp Acoustic's new coaxial drivers can reach?

Recently I have been listening to my system at higher spls, or trying to atleast. And the drivers distort easily with so little power. So I am now leaning more towards pro driver for my next project.

Thanks,

Josh
 
Lynn Olson said:
In terms of gizmos I'm researching in the immediate future, I'm going to be mentioning this and that bone-regrowth devices to my surgeon on May 1st. These aren't made by New Age electronic-gizmo companies - they also make this and that charming implements that are in my leg right now. So my attention isn't 100% on hifi right now.

Hi Lynn,

I sort of recognise the plate and the screws, as I got something of that sort to hold my humerus together while it was healing back in 1993. And, no, it was not humerous :)! 4 months in plaster from fingers to shoulder and then learning how to do everything except wiggle my fingers all over again.

I figure the CIA hire their torturers from the ranks of the rehabilitation therapists. I'm sure they love the screams as you learn how to use your muscles all over again. Not dissing the job that they do though - I have had full movement in my arm since about 8 months after the accident.

I don't envy you for this next period. But it will give you a chance to reflect and write, so some good may come of it...;) Just remember the phrase: "Please {sir/madam}, may I have another..."
 
Cloth Ears said:


Hi Lynn,

I sort of recognise the plate and the screws, as I got something of that sort to hold my humerus together while it was healing back in 1993. And, no, it was not humerous :)! 4 months in plaster from fingers to shoulder and then learning how to do everything except wiggle my fingers all over again.

I figure the CIA hire their torturers from the ranks of the rehabilitation therapists. I'm sure they love the screams as you learn how to use your muscles all over again. Not dissing the job that they do though - I have had full movement in my arm since about 8 months after the accident.

I don't envy you for this next period. But it will give you a chance to reflect and write, so some good may come of it...;) Just remember the phrase: "Please {sir/madam}, may I have another..."

The original experience of crawling up a frozen driveway with a leg broken in several places (both tibia and fibula were broken, and the tibia was in several pieces) recalibrated my experience of pain permanently. I've had kidney stones once before, but this was beyond all description - I was cycling in and out of shock every few minutes until the EMTs got me hooked to an IV line in the ambulance. I didn't even feel the IV line going in, nor did I feel it for the next three days at the hospital.

I'm quite sure that if the EMTs hadn't got there in the first few minutes, I could easily have died of shock and exposure on that sub-freezing day. If I was living alone on some country road, didn't have Karna looking out the window, seeing the whole thing, and calling 911, it could have turned out differently.

By comparison, the post-surgical pain was quite modest, and by the 3rd day, I discontinued taking the oral painkillers (a version of OxyContin as it turned out).

I've already gone through 4 weeks of physical therapy - it's demanding and reaches my physical limits, but my power of will has grown along with greatly improved balance and strength. I've also been gently stretching the leg, massaging the muscle to improve blood flow (fun tingling sensation), and doing the range-of-motion exercises recommended by the therapists.

Day-to-day life has me exercising at a demanding level, working up a sweat for even simple activities. Something as simple as going up and down stairs is a whole different experience doing it on your backside using both arms and one leg to hoist yourself up, while managing a collapsed walker at the same time. Although it's nicer to sleep with the velcro-attached boot off, it goes on any time I need to move, and that's 5 straps in all, some a rather long reach on the far side of the leg. All activities require careful planning on the best method to accomplish the goal - it certainly makes you physically focussed, that's for sure.

The intensity of this experience, and the different quality of day-to-day life, has led to a personality change - everything looks and feels a little different now. I'm sure as my recovery continues, the personality changes will also continue.

Dream life has become much more vivid, although that might partly be due to elevated doses of B-complex and calcium I'm taking now. It's a real shock to go from a colorful 3D flying dream on Parallel Earth to this reality, with the muscular push-up from the bed to the clunk-thud of the walker to get from one side of the room to the other.

The first week after the return from the hospital was especially weird, since my sense of taste was grossly altered - there were entire flavors that simply disappeared. I later found out that it takes about a week or so to completely sweep the anesthetics out of the body, and the full sense of taste gradually returned. For the first two or three weeks, there were big day-to-day mood swings - which you can see in the Clarisonus blog posting - but now things have smoothed out a bit.

I'm more mobile now, and can get around a bit more easily as I master the walker, crutches, driving the car, and using the wheelchair. Even driving the car feels different, I can't describe it, but I'm much more aware of everything around me, and everything looks and feels sharper and crisper.