Beyond the Ariel - Page 399 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th June 2008, 12:56 PM   #3981
RIP
 
pedroskova's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: C'ville VA, USA
pricing?

Quote:
Originally posted by Magnetar


Click the image to open in full size.


It measures much better on axis based from what I have seen posted here from gedlleel. It also has better pattern control vertically (for my room) The profile is 90 by 60. I bought mine for 60.00 for the pair off ebay but have since found Renkus Heinz (the original Emilar people) sells them through their parts department. They have them for small and large format drivers in a variety of profiles. Mine are 1200 flare small format. The construction quality is superb.

For home hifi satisfaction I feel these are much better then the 'Azura' or round tractrix horns


Order Horns from parts
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 01:26 PM   #3982
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portal 2012
You need to contact the manufacture at the linked website. I don't know. I'd like to get a price on the 90 by 40 500hz horn for the 2" driver though- just haven't called them yet.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 04:55 PM   #3983
diyAudio Member
 
chrismercurio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Silicon Valley
Slighty related.....

John K of Zaph Audio will be testing some of the TD drivers.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 05:32 PM   #3984
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Green Bay, WI
Send a message via AIM to John_E_Janowitz Send a message via MSN to John_E_Janowitz Send a message via Yahoo to John_E_Janowitz
Default Re: Re: Measurement echnique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response

Quote:
Originally posted by mige0
"Measurement Technique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response of Speakers" seems to be an explosive topic.
I'm not sure why this needed to turn into a big mess. The point I made about the 3rd party testing is simply that I can spend all the time I want doing tests to prove my claims, but because I am the one doing the testing, i'm already biased and people will doubt the results. Funny thing with the JBL testing is that another company who's drivers are listed on there has a similar test published but the results show their drivers with less compression than the JBL. I'd rather not have any issues with people doubting the testing environment, etc and let someone 3rd party, unbiased, like Lynn do the testing. I believe should be fully qualified and impartial, do you agree?

Quote:

Sam, don't get me wrong - in fact I find the AE-speakers very appealing.
Scroll down a few thousand postings and you will find my strong bias towards phase plug designs. There are strong PROS (less coughing / less program dependant thermal response...) especially for OB designs, but nevertheless some CONS (slower PC decay / faster heat up / higher equilibrium resitance) with that approach
I don't necessarily agree with the con of faster heat up, higher equilibrium resistance. At least not in the case of a woofer with full copper sleeve on the pole One of the biggest advantages to the Lambda phase plug design is that the copper sleeve will pull heat from the coil and do it much more quickly than a steel pole. Heat travels from the hotter medium to the cooler medium, coil to copper sleeve, to pole, to phase plug, and out to the air. A good amount of heat is expelled from the front of the phase plug. This helps to keep the air temperature inside the enclosure lower, which can contribute to the higher equilibrium resistance. Also, without the copper to pull heat from the coil, the coil itself will heat much quicker. The benefit of a dustcap/vented pole doesn't do much until the steel pole heats up enough that the air being forced through the pole vent helps to cool it.

Quote:

Charles, study the datasheets I presented for proof or find some others.
Before arguing with me - argue with the manufactures that in fact WERE able to implement metal VC formers well.
"Then, when you finally get it, I would recommend coming back here..."
We do use black anodized aluminum combined with kapton for the formers. The initial benefit to the alum former is that it pulls heat from the coil. I have kapton only versions of many of the VC's. I can easily build 2 identical drivers with the same coil wound on kapton and on the anodized alum former and show you the results of the 2 options on QMS.

Quote:

I happen to agree with you. It seems the singers of AE speakers have not really compared them to real drivers. I have never tried them and probably never will
I have personally compared them to many drivers in many different ways. Keep in mind, back about 8 yrs ago I wasn't associated with Lambda. I was basically a customer. I've compared them to many drivers, but which ones would you consider real? I've done head to head comparisons with 3" and 4" VC EV woofers, Altecs, TAD1601's, JBL's, etc. Keep in mind we have a tiny 2" diameter VC that has been on par with these much bigger 3" and 4" coil drivers in terms of compression.

Jeff Bagby comments from the HTGuide thread:
There are a lot of great woofers out there, some even play well into the midrange. We recently used a JBL 2206 for a similar speaker. The Lambda appears to significantly out-perform the more expensive JBL though. Aside from having a 22Hz Fs and 11mm of Xmax, it has full length Faraday sleeve that reduces Le to .30mH, which is about the level you find in a 4" driver. Consequently, one of the most significant sources of distortion (inductance) is reduced to a very low level. This driver has very low levels of distortion in the midrange for being able to produce good bass at the same time. I am not aware of another driver that approaches this.

It's interesting you claim that they haven't been compared to any "real" drivers. However, according to the JBL chart, the 2206H with vented gap technology is literally one of their best drivers. Again, we are not avoiding any kind of comparison. I simply don't want any questions about whether or not we doctored the results, had any kind of bias, etc.

John
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 05:42 PM   #3985
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Groningen
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Good Articles

Quote:
Originally posted by mige0

The Vifa 10BG with aluminium former versus the Vifa XT18WO09-08 with Kapton former are a good example:

the VIVA XT18WO09-08 with Kapton former:
http://www.tymphany.com/files/produc...T18WO09-08.pdf
Qms = 5,87
Rms = 0,49 kg/s

VIFA 10BG120 with aluminium former:
Qms = 4,6
Rms = 0.36 kg/s (which is even LOWER )
http://www.lautsprechershop.de/pdf/v...er/10bg120.pdf
Rms = cone area related, so you cannot compare between different diameter drivers. The smaller driver will always have a lower Rms.

So the 0.49 kg/s you quote from the 7 icnh XT19W009-08 is in comparison lower than the 0.36 of the 4 inch.

Not to be smart, just to end this misinterpretation

Regards
Roland
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 05:52 PM   #3986
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Magneter> These RH waveguides look like they have a round mouth, but seem to say that the throat is elliptical? So for the 90x60 it must have an 90x60 ellipse throat transitioning to a round mouth? Is that what yours show?

How is the throat entry/driver mating?
__________________
~Brandon
DriverVault Soma Sonus Old Driver Tests
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 09:22 PM   #3987
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portal 2012
Quote:
Originally posted by augerpro
Magneter> These RH waveguides look like they have a round mouth, but seem to say that the throat is elliptical? So for the 90x60 it must have an 90x60 ellipse throat transitioning to a round mouth? Is that what yours show?

How is the throat entry/driver mating?
Yes, the throat has a perfect round entrance then goes to an elliptical shape then goes out to round again. They sound very good, better than the 18 Sound XT120 and far more open then my round tractrix horns. If you look at the Renkus Heinz site you'll see they also make some cool elliptical horns.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 09:48 PM   #3988
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portal 2012
Default Re: Re: Re: Measurement echnique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Resp

Quote:
Originally posted by John_E_Janowitz






I have personally compared them to many drivers in many different ways. Keep in mind, back about 8 yrs ago I wasn't associated with Lambda. I was basically a customer. I've compared them to many drivers, but which ones would you consider real? I've done head to head comparisons with 3" and 4" VC EV woofers, Altecs, TAD1601's, JBL's, etc. Keep in mind we have a tiny 2" diameter VC that has been on par with these much bigger 3" and 4" coil drivers in terms of compression.

Jeff Bagby comments from the HTGuide thread:
There are a lot of great woofers out there, some even play well into the midrange. We recently used a JBL 2206 for a similar speaker. The Lambda appears to significantly out-perform the more expensive JBL though. Aside from having a 22Hz Fs and 11mm of Xmax, it has full length Faraday sleeve that reduces Le to .30mH, which is about the level you find in a 4" driver. Consequently, one of the most significant sources of distortion (inductance) is reduced to a very low level. This driver has very low levels of distortion in the midrange for being able to produce good bass at the same time. I am not aware of another driver that approaches this.

It's interesting you claim that they haven't been compared to any "real" drivers. However, according to the JBL chart, the 2206H with vented gap technology is literally one of their best drivers. Again, we are not avoiding any kind of comparison. I simply don't want any questions about whether or not we doctored the results, had any kind of bias, etc.

John
I am not impressed with the 2226/2206 series JBLs. Look at the 2227 or 2242 for a 'real' driver from them.

I do not consider a magazine or a website that takes money for advertisements a source of real meaningful information.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 10:32 PM   #3989
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: US
Default Re: Re: Re: Re: Measurement echnique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient

Quote:
Originally posted by Magnetar


I am not impressed with the 2226/2206 series JBLs. Look at the 2227 or 2242 for a 'real' driver from them.

I do not consider a magazine or a website that takes money for advertisements a source of real meaningful information.
The quote was pulled from a forum thread just like this one, however the design Jeff was working on was a commercial design. Note though that I don't think Jeff would cave to marketing blather.. BUT I also don't think he has a wide degree of experience with more eff. drivers - so I don't think it adds much "weight" to the topic.

None of JBL's recent offerings are really "real" drivers. They are all caught up with thermal compression for long and loud pro use. Domestically we may achieve some pretty high spl peaks (program dependent), but on average most of us never exceed 100 db (and rarely 95 db), so such engineering is a waste.

I'm also not convinced of the recent "I need low inductance for low distortion" argument. Low inductance usually leads to low distortion at higher freq.s - a fairly moot point if you don't operate the driver near its upper freq. limit. IF however you are going wide-band, then yes, it *can* become more important - usually to a modest degree. Note though that some wide-band drivers RELY on it (to an extent) to lower their on-axis response (..which is usually elevated due to a very high strength motor).

I however *like* the idea behind 18 Sound's "active impedance".. but NOT because of its reduction in non-linear distortion. What I think is particularly worthwhile with such a design is that its significantly reducing the amount of "back"-current into the pairing amplifier. This is fairly meaningless for an amplifier with a high current power supply.. but with a typical low current (and low power) amplifier you *can* achieve ***much*** better sound. (..note though that their drivers still have an overly stiff surround - good for pressure operation but suboptimal for velocity operation).
__________________
perspective is everything
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th June 2008, 11:06 PM   #3990
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Portal 2012
The 2242 is a real driver Scott - I have been using them for years the 2227 uses the same basic technology and I assume it's the same - the 2226, 2206, 2241 were all major disappointments to me - there is a lot of singers about those too

Low inductance and 2" coils - sounds like a tweeter to me

I'd like to try a pair of the 18 Sounds too! Those may be in the same league as 2242 - maybe better! And they look to be using that technology in a mid - that will be my next driver-- looks like I need to sell some stuff so I can have them
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 03:13 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2