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Old 15th June 2008, 09:41 PM   #3971
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Why not do something like this. If JBL can publish this information about their competitors?? It's a simple test in principle, 300 watts of Pink Noise from 50-500 with SPL measured at time intervals. Total time 60 seconds, wouldn't want to be anywhere nearby when they were running that one

Rob
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Old 15th June 2008, 10:04 PM   #3972
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Default Re: Re: Bs - Btw

Quote:
Originally posted by John_E_Janowitz


The problem with us providing any data is that we can't directly compare it to anything, or more realistically people in general cant' compare it to anything. Finding any other companies who have adequate data on power compression is difficult to begin with. Finding one that will give their specifications on how they come up with the numbers so someone can duplicate the measurements is impossible. We can publish our own data and state how the results are measured, but without other manufacturers measuring in the same way for comparison sake the data alone doesn't do much good. It's like saying vehicle A is 300hp and vehicle B is 600HP, which is faster? Without knowing vehicle A is a corvette and vehicle B is a dump truck you can't make a valid comparison.

We can do in house measurements of our drivers vs other manufacturers, but we can't very well publish the results of their info for comparison. Then figure in the fact that the industry is so full of marketing lies and garbage, that people can skew any tests to make the results look how they want. No matter how reliable our tests are, people won't believe them anyway. This is why an impartial 3rd party is the key to the whole thing. Not being associated with either company, the full comparison can be published and their is no "hidden agenda" so people can make reliable conclusions for the results.

John

John, good points, I agree with to some extent.

On the other hand :

- I proposed a measurement procedure that reveals way more than usual compression figures. The procedure is public and fully transparent to everyone. It displays results as plot that is easy and intuitively to understand / interpret
- I am pretty sure if your design is way superior as claimed, it does not take much discussion about how to interpret things - but I doubt – and have presented some quick calculations - that this is not likely to happen as long no better VC wire material is used
- measurement isn't beyond the skills and equipment of may here so I am confident that over time we will see data from a wide spectrum of competitors
- a neutral third party would always be good to have – but who is NEUTRAL = having NO "hidden agenda"? - Only the public proof here is kinda real proof – not something done by "specialists" with Ray Ban sunglasses you have to believe to


Its up to you to take the chance I offer or to put us off with some strong words and some limp hand waving only .



Greetings
Michael
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Old 15th June 2008, 10:20 PM   #3973
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Quote:
Originally posted by Robh3606
Why not do something like this. If JBL can publish this information about their competitors?? It's a simple test in principle, 300 watts of Pink Noise from 50-500 with SPL measured at time intervals. Total time 60 seconds, wouldn't want to be anywhere nearby when they were running that one

Rob

Excelent starter – thanks, Rob.

What we don't see in the diagram is
- how fast do the speakers recover
- to what extend its cooling mechanism is program (= membrane excursion) dependant

300W for 60 sec is 18 times the energy injection I propose. It might be a good test if you want to compare reliability rather than sound quality – and having some fun burning down a competitors VC.

For many interesting speakers its way too much - limiting this procedure significantly in usability not to speak that you hardly can do that somewhere at home.

Greetings
Michael
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Old 15th June 2008, 10:26 PM   #3974
SamL is offline SamL  New Zealand
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Hi mige0,
You might want to have a read at what others thought of Lambda speaker driver before thinking that nickmckinney don't know anything.
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpos...2&postcount=68

Sam
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Old 15th June 2008, 11:28 PM   #3975
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Regarding power compression, I too think that it is an important aspect of a loudspeaker system, but I am not sure that the JBL test gets at all of the problems.

I also think that some "common" if not standard method is needed for comparison purposes.

I used pink noise and plotted the spectrum as a function of time which showed how the individual drivers and the crossover was compressing and how the frequency response changing. This test showed signifcant differences in systems since it shows far more than simply plotting the dB Loss over time. Power compression is at least as important for the HF device as it is for the LF one and the JBL test completely ignores this.

Personally, I'd steer clear of a stated power levels and worry about a stated SPL levels. Its the SPL that we care about not how much power the system can handle. Power ratings are mostly for pro apps where driver burn out is an issue. For us this is not the issue, but audible FR changes at useful (but high) SPL levels is.
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Old 16th June 2008, 12:05 AM   #3976
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Quote:
Originally posted by mige0
Concerning gaps in metal formers to prevent from eddy currents:

Yeah, - I know– you know - Vifa knows

- but – are you sure nickmckinney knew?
Michael, your arrogant tone matches your ignorance. I am surprised to find that Nick even bothers to take the time to answer your posts.

In case you missed it, he *corrected* my misinformation.

My post was only partially correct. Go back and re-read Nick's reply.

And keep doing that until you understand what Nick said.

Then, when you finally get it, I would recommend coming back here with your tail between your legs and offer an apology.
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Old 16th June 2008, 01:16 AM   #3977
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Default Re: Bs - Btw

Quote:
Originally posted by mige0
Anyway, either you don't know how to take measurements (embarrassing, embarrassing ) OR you are afraid to proof your own words.


Are you trying to be a troll or just act like an annoying fool that knows little about speaker driver design but talks like he is the expert on it?

I gave an offer for any third party to test my designs against any other and report the results. If you think this gets done overnight with reputable people that you all respect then you are sadly mistaken.

Lynn himself has stated that he will test the ceramic magnet TD drivers against Alnico Altecs in this very thread. Why don't you take a chill pill and wait for the results?

BTW - That is not the only comparison in the works, and when more results come back with closer to the tests that *you* are looking for I will be sending a PM with my address for delivery of that champagne.
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Old 16th June 2008, 12:34 PM   #3978
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Quote:
Originally posted by SunRa
This complex conic horn looks a bit like Dr's Geddes waveguides, isn't it? Magnetar, can't wait to see your new loudspeakers!
Click the image to open in full size.


It measures much better on axis based from what I have seen posted here from gedlleel. It also has better pattern control vertically (for my room) The profile is 90 by 60. I bought mine for 60.00 for the pair off ebay but have since found Renkus Heinz (the original Emilar people) sells them through their parts department. They have them for small and large format drivers in a variety of profiles. Mine are 1200 flare small format. The construction quality is superb.

For home hifi satisfaction I feel these are much better then the 'Azura' or round tractrix horns


Order Horns from parts
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Old 16th June 2008, 12:45 PM   #3979
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Default Measurement echnique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response of Sp

"Measurement Technique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response of Speakers" seems to be an explosive topic.


To allow for cooling down I will take a short vacation – seems I have injected more energy than some people in this thread can handle.


Earl, thanks for your statement at # 3984 – spot on – and exactly what I wanted to draw peoples attention to when I brought up that topic .


nickmckinney, no measurement competition between you and me – no champagne. - but you always can send me one in case you loose the third party testing.


Sam, don't get me wrong - in fact I find the AE-speakers very appealing.
Scroll down a few thousand postings and you will find my strong bias towards phase plug designs. There are strong PROS (less coughing / less program dependant thermal response...) especially for OB designs, but nevertheless some CONS (slower PC decay / faster heat up / higher equilibrium resitance) with that approach


Charles, study the datasheets I presented for proof or find some others.
Before arguing with me - argue with the manufactures that in fact WERE able to implement metal VC formers well.
"Then, when you finally get it, I would recommend coming back here..."


Lynn, apologise for having occupied your thread too much

Greetings
Michael.
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Old 16th June 2008, 12:50 PM   #3980
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Default Re: Measurement echnique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response of

Quote:
Originally posted by mige0
"Measurement Technique for in Depth Investigation of Thermal Transient Response of Speakers" seems to be an explosive topic.


To allow for cooling down I will take a short vacation – seems I have injected more energy than some people in this thread can handle.



Greetings
Michael.

I happen to agree with you. It seems the singers of AE speakers have not really compared them to real drivers. I have never tried them and probably never will
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