Beyond the Ariel - Page 391 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 7th June 2008, 08:38 AM   #3901
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
diyAudio Member
 
mige0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Austria, at a beautiful place right in the heart of the Alps.
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
Hi Caninus80!

P.S. About cameras - just about impossible to go wrong with Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or Sony DSL's. They are all really, really good, and can yield professional results in skilled hands. But they have a very long learning curve, which I found out after buying my Pentax K10D. My first SLR was a Pentax Spotmatic that I bought new in 1964, my second was a Nikon FE2 that I bought new in 1984, I've developed my own Tri-X and printed my own prints on DuPont and Ilford papers during the early Seventies, and I've used full Photoshop on a high-end Macintosh since 1999.

With this background, I thought I'd master the K10D in a matter of days. Wrong. Using digital to its full quality takes a different set of skills than film. In terms of tonal qualities, it's a bit like shooting very fast Kodachrome that is much easier to color-balance. It took me six months to finally graduate to shooting everything in RAW mode, and the skills to master Photoshop so that I could take advantage of the extra quality and flexibility. The DSLR's above entry-level take a surprising amount of time to master - they are very different animals than point-n-shoot cameras.

I will mention that each brand of camera seems to have a different color palette from each other, and it take a fair amount of time in Photoshop to make the shots have a similar color "character". I like the rendition of Canon and Pentax best, and am less fond of the Nikon and Sony look. Yes, you can make one camera look like another - but it's rather tedious and pointless, and saves time if you like the inherent set of choices that the camera vendor built into the camera as color-processing defaults.

Spot on.
Just want to add Olympus as my old time favourite from analogue SLR times. Makes pretty beautiful 3/4 th's now but not that much to recommend in the pocket sector besides the discontinued C-7000Z IMO.


Greetings
Michael
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2008, 02:19 PM   #3902
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Novi, Michigan
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson


Well, I hate to throw cold water on this and antagonize the JBL fans, but the Ranger-Paragon was one of the biggest disappointments I've ever had in audio. They are absolutely stunning-looking loudspeakers "in person", far more beautiful than the pictures suggest. Most definitely Museum of Modern Art-worthy - the only word I can use is "icon", like an iPod or iPhone.

Imaging? None. The theory of the curved panel doesn't work - it just creates a zillion reflections, a very hollow-sounding midrange, and scrambles the stereo even more. The Ranger-Paragon is an object example in the sound of early reflections combined with large, resonant structures that are close to the drivers.

Well, now that's I've knocked one of the most iconic (so to speak) speakers ever made, I'm not expecting any love letters from JBL fans. But I heard what I heard, way back then, and it really sounded pretty awful. In terms of a huge gulf between ambitious advertising claims and the acoustic results, the Ranger-Paragon is right up there with the Karlson.

A classic example of looking good and sounding good are not the same thing. I loved JBL products for a long time, thats all I used to own, but the Paragon was a disaster. I still thought that they made good drivers after that. Now I find that their stuff is just expensive.
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2008, 02:27 PM   #3903
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lynn Olson
[B]Hi Caninus80!

One experiment you might want to try in the future is placing the diaphragm of the 399 a few inches behind the dustcap of the midbass driver - I'd start with 4~6 inches based on my fooling around with time-aligning a Klipsch Chorus, which combines a 15" midbass with a mid and HF horn. (See results here.) It was the relative simplicity of the brief experiments with the Klipsch that gave me the confidence to even try horns in the first place.


Lynn,
Of course I will try with placing 399. This CD is my first one, so now I will make some experiments with mounting... What You see on the photo is set-up only to make measurements (today I got my first measurement
system- behringer mc8000 mic, behringer 802 pre and m-audio transit)
So I will have fun
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dsc03821.jpg (66.3 KB, 1299 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2008, 02:39 PM   #3904
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Also today I found something like this (photo)
This thing gives me a lot of opportunity to place CD at many different ways.
If You like it I can send this "rings" to You.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dsc03830.jpg (63.7 KB, 1184 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th June 2008, 02:40 PM   #3905
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
one more...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg dsc03823.jpg (58.6 KB, 1186 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2008, 12:41 AM   #3906
diyAudio Member
 
Lynn Olson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Colorado
Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

A classic example of looking good and sounding good are not the same thing. I loved JBL products for a long time, thats all I used to own, but the Paragon was a disaster. I still thought that they made good drivers after that. Now I find that their stuff is just expensive.
Yes, the Ranger-Paragon was sooo good-looking, along with the beautiful Barzilay Brazilian Rosewood equipment cabinets with elegant multisection sliding "tambour" doors. So classy and elegant-looking. But the sound ... oh well.

My friend Tony Glynn (of Lowther USA) liked Stephens Tru-Sonic - he described them as the best-sounding speaker of the day, far above Altec, JBL, and Klipsch. I didn't realize that Bob Stephens was the co-designer of the Shearer Theater Speaker in 1936, and would have had a low opinion of the funky sectoral horns that Altec was pushing in the consumer market.

When you separate the marketing puff from the Eames Three-Way, there seems to be a good loudspeaker in there. The 15" midbass goes up to 800 Hz, the big multicell covers 800 Hz to 5 kHz, the smaller tweeter takes over at 5 kHz, which look like good choices considering the dispersion characteristics of the three drivers.

The conservative choice of crossover points is also relevant considering the lack of knowledge of driver equalization and impedance correction techniques fifty years ago. Modern crossover design and Theile/Small theory were still fifteen years in the future. We can cut the mid-Fifties folks a little slack on the oddball bass-loading theories of the day - modern filter theory was the domain of the military, aerospace, radar, and leading-edge color-TV engineers, not audio. It took more than a decade for Theile's paper to make it from an obscure Australian journal to the august pages of the Journal of the Audio Engineering Society.

The Eames pictures look nice, although I doubt anything could match the Ranger-Paragon for sheer room-filling beauty. The price of the Eames Three-Way is a little sobering - US$540 for a single loudspeaker was a lot of money back in 1958. Gold was $35/oz, a nice Chevrolet with V8 engine was about $1400, and a pleasant house in a good neighborhood was $10,000.

Looking back, I'd guess the best speakers fifty years ago were probably the Quad ESL-57, the AR-1W with the Janszen Z-130 tweeter, the 12" and 15" Tannoy Dual Concentrics, and the Stephens Tru-Sonic lineup - maybe the larger Bozak models too, but I've never heard the Stephens or the Bozaks.

P.S. This is a real audio classic. Check out the authentic Fifties decor on Page Four.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2008, 01:51 AM   #3907
agent.5 is offline agent.5  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson

Yes, the Ranger-Paragon was sooo good-looking, along with the beautiful Barzilay Brazilian Rosewood equipment cabinets with elegant multisection sliding "tambour" doors. So classy and elegant-looking. But the sound ... oh well.
Well, at least we can agreed on this point. Paragon is just beautiful. Another fact is that most people buy speakers based strictly on look, as they have no clue what a speaker should sound like.

Moreover, how many speakers actually go UP in price after you purchased it? Not many.

Paragon has a lot of problems, for examples.

The cabinet is too low. Maybe, even too small,
The bass drivers are not coupled to the ground,
The sound from the mid horns bounce off the curved panel,
The sound from mid horns bounce off the curved panel, but the tweeters do not.
etc
etc

But I think the basic technical design of a Paragon, a single-point source, 3 way horn system is applicable here. I think we can do better to say that a good sounding speaker must look ugly. Sorry, Dr. Gedlee.

For starter, the Paragon can be heightened from 24" to 36" in height; extend the bass horn to the floor; and if bouncing off a curved surface is a bad idea, then flip the curved surface backward. Make the cutoff of the bass horn to 77Hz.

I still have not figure out the time alignment problem(translation: I don't have a clue how to do time alignment without going digital). My suspicion is that time alignment is the reason why JBL put the tweeters where they are.

My point is that there is no reason to make an ugly speaker. If it is not ugly, then there will be no WAF to deal with. WAF has nothing to do with how big the speakers are.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2008, 07:00 AM   #3908
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Sanford,FL
Quote:
Originally posted by agent.5
WAF has nothing to do with how big the speakers are.

You're kidding right? Have you talked to many wives...
__________________
"The appreciation of music is subjective.The reproduction of music isn't."-Bill Dudleston
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2008, 07:17 AM   #3909
agent.5 is offline agent.5  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Quote:
Originally posted by robertwb70



You're kidding right? Have you talked to many wives...
Honestly, No. But I doubt many wives have seen a picture of the paragon either.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th June 2008, 11:23 AM   #3910
jamikl is offline jamikl  Australia
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Melbourne
Re Lynn's Mad HiFi, also checkout question two, page five. This same answer has been expressed how many times in recent threads?
jamikl
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:48 AM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2