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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 11th April 2008, 02:01 PM   #3321
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: Thus Far

Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson

No reason to read all that stuff, so here's a recap:

Lynn

Thanks for the review. There is so much we agree on and so much we disagree on, its hard to belive that we are both trying to solve the same problem. Clearly one difference is I am always trying to keep the costs down as low as practicable and that doesn't seem like a strong criteria in your approach.

Let me know if you want to try some of my waveguides - with foam - I think that I will have a regular supply coming from Thailand.
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Old 11th April 2008, 03:52 PM   #3322
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Default matching....

Fellow diyers and Lynn,

My previous post was not meant to make you use the PHY or PHL speakers. I actually never have auditioned them… I just wanted to have some opinion about the relevance of pairing drivers.
As John mentioned, AE speakers have much tighter tolerances, but the standard within industry is ± 10 %, which is pretty wide!
Chris mentioned that some Danish manufacturers sell pair of their units.
Globally, it seems that very little is done to match the left and right drivers of a pair of loudspeaker. That’s what I call pairing (have in mind that English is a foreign language to me!)

Considering a wide range speaker pair, I have the feeling that a well matched pair of driver will give a better stereo perspective, sharper sound, more 3-dimensional sound. On the other side, badly matched units would give a blurry soundstage. Everything else equal, of course…
The same argument is also valid for several way speakers!

Going a bit further, you can question the relevance of drawing conclusion from a waterfall graph of one and only driver. What if the driver is at the bottom of these large tolerances? What if it is at the top of it? You never know…!

So am I lost on petty details here or am I onto something???

/Etienne
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Old 11th April 2008, 05:02 PM   #3323
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Quote:
Originally posted by Anglo
Lynn,

Thanks for that detailed response, it is really appreciated. So, you are going towards a compression driver to do the "big" part of the sound and woofers at the bottom end which will be biamped for the rolloff of 6db caused by the baffle. Whatever happened to the charming 15" wideband? I know you are telling me that they measure pretty badly(the coaxial and wizzer ones) but nonetheless, you were charmed by their magic...right?

Just curious.

Steve
From what I understand:
There will still be a wideband midrange. The tone tubby or whatever is going to be the midrange. The compression driver will be more upper mid and lower treble. Then the Raal supertweeter on the top octave.
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Old 11th April 2008, 06:35 PM   #3324
Anglo is offline Anglo  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caferacer


From what I understand:
There will still be a wideband midrange. The tone tubby or whatever is going to be the midrange. The compression driver will be more upper mid and lower treble. Then the Raal supertweeter on the top octave.
Ahh, missed that part. This will be a coherent challenge! All these drivers are basically to get rid of the beaming in the higher frequencies...?

I am going to follow this project very carefully because on my OB, I have been suggested to use a compression driver for the upper mid. I am very sensitive to coherence, so adding yet another driver to the mix scares me.
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Old 11th April 2008, 06:46 PM   #3325
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"I am going to follow this project very carefully because on my OB, I have been suggested to use a compression driver for the upper mid. I am very sensitive to coherence, so adding yet another driver to the mix scares me."

Agreed. Plus, I dislike horns. I am rooting for the underdog. I hope the best sound ends up being the 12" hemp cone alnico magnet Tone Tubby(maybe modified with phase plugs) crossed straight to the double high Raal tweeter. That would be cool.
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Old 11th April 2008, 09:16 PM   #3326
Anglo is offline Anglo  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Caferacer
"I am going to follow this project very carefully because on my OB, I have been suggested to use a compression driver for the upper mid. I am very sensitive to coherence, so adding yet another driver to the mix scares me."

Agreed. Plus, I dislike horns. I am rooting for the underdog. I hope the best sound ends up being the 12" hemp cone alnico magnet Tone Tubby(maybe modified with phase plugs) crossed straight to the double high Raal tweeter. That would be cool.
...and when will this project begin (everyone asking at the same time says)
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Old 12th April 2008, 01:52 AM   #3327
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee

Lynn

Thanks for the review. There is so much we agree on and so much we disagree on, its hard to belive that we are both trying to solve the same problem. Clearly one difference is I am always trying to keep the costs down as low as practicable and that doesn't seem like a strong criteria in your approach.

Let me know if you want to try some of my waveguides - with foam - I think that I will have a regular supply coming from Thailand.
I'm certainly open to trying them at some point in the future - but for the present, I'm looking at what large-format compression drivers can, or can't, do, starting with the Altec 288 family and modern successors like the Radian 745P.

The comment about keeping costs down brought a smile - see pix below. That's one channel of a 16-watt Class A amplifier. I didn't design it because I'm into the SET craze - although I'm partial to some of them - but as a research project to see how low I could get distortion in the forward path, with no assistance from feedback or feedforward techniques, as well as investigating a topology that as little variance in dynamic output impedance as possible (as voltage swings up and down, many amplifiers have instantaneous changes in output Z as devices switch on and off).

It might be possible to do the same things with MOSFETs, but they'd require some fairly exotic analog-computer pre-distortion techniques to get the forward-path distortion as low as DHTs are naturally - besides, aside from the charms of a 520 volt B+ supply and the pleasing glow at night, I was curious about the sound of the devices themselves, not the devices + complex pre-distortion circuits. So I'm willing to go out on a limb with these little projects, and if it's out of fashion in audiophile and engineering circles, so much the better.

I like investigating these obscure corners of audio - techniques that fell out of favor decades ago, or were outright forgotten, such as the Western Electric alternative to negative feedback, the Harmonic Balancer, which was partially revived in this amplifier. It was last used in the Western Electric 92A, circa 1935, and was forgotten when the Williamson swept aside all other topologies in 1947.

For some reason, and it really seems little more than historical accident, Hollywood (Altec and JBL) did not follow up on the time-domain research of D.E.L. Shorter of the BBC and Richard Heyser - even though Pasadena, home of Caltech, is only a few miles away from the headquarters of both firms. Probably one of those all-too-typical Not Invented Here things (I worked at Tektronix for nine years, and John Atwood has told me plenty of stories about what it was like to work for Intel, Sequent, and Apple).

Anyway, with computer techniques, we can look at things that should have been investigated many decades ago - and time-domain performance of high-efficiency speakers is right at the top of the list. Will the compression driver & horn (or waveguide) outperform the stacked array of direct-radiator midranges (I already have a quartet of 18Sound 6ND410's)? We'll see.
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Old 12th April 2008, 03:51 AM   #3328
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Lynn isn't even showing you the power supply which is another chassis (total of 4 chassis for one 16 watt/channel amp).
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Old 12th April 2008, 04:02 AM   #3329
BudP is offline BudP  United States
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Nor is he mentioning the transformer count...yikes what a lot of iron!!!
Or the incredible performance levels. Just marvelous sounding devices, and no audible hum either.

Bud
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Old 12th April 2008, 08:55 AM   #3330
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Hi Mr Olson and Dr Geddes and everyone else in this thread!

I woud like to know Your opinion on this: http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/gs-1.htm

Onkyo Grand Scepter

Of course this is not an OB design but I can see some common features with Mr Olson's "Beyond Ariel" project and even more with Dr Geddes' designs. I mean high directivity, high efficiency, high power handling, mighty midtweeter in a big waveguide, no bass augmenting resonators and so on

best,
graaf
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