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Old 10th March 2008, 10:04 AM   #3191
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Sorry about the curmudgeonly tone of the previous post - I just get cranky when I see technology going backward, like jet airplanes slower and much more crowded than the original 707, moon landings now further away than they were in the Fifties, and movie technology far behind the road-show standard of 1961. The technological regression in these fields is disguised by lots of corporate PR and slick advertising, but is real enough for those of us who remember it.

A lot of the real horrors of the Fifties, thank God, are now all but gone - terrorism and murder by the Ku Klux Klan, legally mandated racial segregation in the South, the blacklists drawn up by the House Un-American Activities Committee, medieval "psychotherapy" such as lobotomies and electroshock, open discrimination against many social groups (Jews, Catholics, Asians, blacks, women, gays, etc.), the Khruschev-era Soviet gulag and imprisonment of all of Eastern Europe, the threat of imminent annihilation by multi-megaton nuclear bombs, the list goes on. This is all just stuff for the history books now.

I guess a few grumbles about audio are pretty small change by comparison.
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Old 10th March 2008, 12:23 PM   #3192
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Well, the CD horn is a much better alternative to a multicell, and a bit better then a tractrix of the same dimensions run wide range in my room. I use a 6 db attenuator at 3K to even the response. The EC320C and Community horn can easily be driver by a single 45 although I use PP EL84s, They sound better to me. If you want the compression driver to cover the low mid it must be large, when if it is ran that low properly it has no peers in sheer dynamics and musical resolution. The problem is the horn used will either beam like a SOB (round tractric, Le cleach) or it will be constant directivity - both require eq even with TAD 4001. There are large radial horns out there I've never tried ---

The other alternative is split up the treble and place another compression driver (normally more than more then a wavelength away) - this will cause more problems - regardless of the home hifi room installation.

Surely I am the only one that has this (or will have this system) system in the world (six open baffle tens, ec320c, community horn, horn sub ect.. so it's not really relevant other than I just thought I'd share the evolution of my 'high sensitivity open baffles'

Technology has advanced in almost every way- I was using a 50 thousand dollar HD CRT projector TV for viewing and replaced it with no regrets with a 1200.00 DLP projector. High definition or Blue Ray movies are FAR superior to VHS tapes, and in my opinion my 'video' system' is as good or better than the old theater downtown I visited regularly in the 60s.
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Old 11th March 2008, 08:04 AM   #3193
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I'm nobody but I was under the impression that the somebodys had proven humans have a hard time accurately comparing a sound they heard less than a minute ago with one they're hearing now. I believe the emotional experience of being impressed as hell by the sound of something at the time you heard it can be stored, but I don't believe that you can store the waveform in your head for later comparison to something else. That would seem to make any memory based comparison between the sound of the movies last week and the theaters of the fifties a waste of time. I'm not saying THX is great or industry is motivated by anything other than money, but even if a lot of specs can be squared away with your existing beliefs, it doesn't prove anything. Reading and making philosophy about what *should* be good is fine, but blind testing is too.

Just an unsolicited grouch to balance your curmudgeon.
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Old 11th March 2008, 11:16 AM   #3194
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Magnetar,

You think PP EL84 sound better then a single 45, try a transformer coupled PP DHT (Amity).
Regards
Frank
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Old 11th March 2008, 09:59 PM   #3195
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Ahh, audio memory. Interesting subject, and not as scientific as it seems at first blush, since it is so intimately connected with consciousness itself, the great Terra Incognita of science. Back when I was working on my Bachelor's in Psychology in 1971, the idiot Behaviourists were in ascendency, and their almighty guru Skinner actually proclaimed consciousness didn't exist!!!

Uh well, then why are we able to make any decisions at all? Or think? Or be held responsible for what we do? Right and wrong? So the entire moral, ethical, and philosophical systems going back to the Greeks are all illusions? Only a pseudo-science like Psychology would have the appalling conceit to even make such a suggestion.

As somebody who grew in up in the Buddhist cultures of Japan and Hong Kong, Skinner's claims were preposterous on their face. The shoe is on the other foot: it is up to science to explore the vast wilderness of consciousness, not give up at the outset and assert it doesn't exist.

A third of a century has passed, and Freud and Skinner are thoroughly discredited, having been shown to be almost totally ineffective in treating a wide range of serious mental illnesses such as schizophrenia, borderline personality disorder, manic depression, depression, and sociopathic ideation and behaviour. Neurochemistry is making a dent on these, although the mode of action is still largely a mystery. Lysergic acid diethylamide-25 (LSD) and serotonin reuptake inhibitors (the Prozac group) both act on serotonin, but they certainly have dramatically different effects on consciousness - effects that are NOT predicted by standard models of biochemistry.

Models of consciousness are at a very early stage - the collapse of the decades-old AI project and replacement by very narrow sensory-emulation systems is the most direct evidence of the sheer scale of the problem. HAL 9000 is now much further off than it was in 1964, despite the enormous increase in raw computer power and connectivity.

So consciousness remains a profound mystery - the problem is so nebulous, oddly formed, and difficult to grasp it is very difficult to even know how to properly scope the size of the task. It is easy to fall into the trap of simply refusing to acknowledge the problem, and consign it to the domain of metaphysics. That might work except for the inescapable fact that consciousness is the place where we actually live, moment by moment.

It isn't "out there", it's right here, as you read, comprehend, and remember the meaning of the words in front of you right now - and all of this happens silently and automatically without any awareness of how it works. No computer can even begin to do this. Computers have no understanding of "meaning" or context whatever.

Every moment we are aware this vast process goes on, yet have we no actual understanding of it at all. We know less about consciousness than the ancient Greeks knew about the origins of the Universe, or the nature of light and matter.

This is why I take assertions of this or that perception, or the memory of that perception, being "impossible" with a big dose of skepticism. I've seen not one, but several generations of psychology being completely discredited since I left college (Freud, Electroshock, Lobotomy, Behaviourism, etc.).

Extensive research has shown we are not a bundle of conditioned reflexes, and the Freudian superego, ego, and id do not exist except as a historical artifact of the early Twentieth Century. The neurochemical model in vogue today will probably be discredited in a decade or two if history is any guide.

I do use the standard models of perception, but I don't treat them in the same league as physics and acoustics - they could change at any time, since there are many implicit assumptions in the designs of the experiments that could change.

Standard models tell me to pay the most attention to the midrange, following the pattern of the Fletcher-Munson or noise-perception curves. That works for me. Standard models do not seem to account for things like the audibility of capacitor coloration. I hear this repeatably, others don't, but I do, so I take it into account, since I am designing for my perceptions, not the perceptions of a standardized group of grad-school students. Then there's a gray area, where the research is thin on the ground and equivocal - audibility of time distortion, and the importance of direct vs total room-energy spectra. Again, I see this as a subjective call, not a matter of hard science.
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Old 11th March 2008, 10:20 PM   #3196
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Good points.
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Old 11th March 2008, 10:41 PM   #3197
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OK, enough metaphysics for now. Hey, Magnetar, what was your quick impression of each of the compression drivers you tried? You must have listened to each for at least a few minutes, what did you think - or maybe feel - about each one? Not so much a good, better, best thing, but more of an overall impression of the sonic character of each "flavor".

I'm no expert on these things, but I do know they sound different from each other. At the least, a metal diaphragm is certainly going to sound different than phenolic, no matter how they measure. And phase-plug design, since it is essentially a specialized diffraction generator, has to be important as well.
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Old 11th March 2008, 10:58 PM   #3198
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"Standard models do not seem to account for things like the audibility of capacitor coloration. I hear this repeatably, others don't, but I do, so I take it into account, since I am designing for my perceptions,"

Hello Lynn

So what are your favorite capacitors?? Have you tried them Charge Coupled, with a DC bias applied??

Rob
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Old 12th March 2008, 12:10 AM   #3199
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Quote:
Good points.
That was understated, appropriately so.

Quote:
It isn't "out there", it's right here, as you read, comprehend, and remember the meaning of the words in front of you right now - and all of this happens silently and automatically without any awareness of how it works.
Lynn, I don't think you concern yourself to much with why or how you do it...just keep doin' it.
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Old 12th March 2008, 12:15 AM   #3200
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson
Standard models do not seem to account for things like the audibility of capacitor coloration. I hear this repeatably, others don't, but I do, so I take it into account, since I am designing for my perceptions, not the perceptions of a standardized group of grad-school students.

I also have a question regarding this comment. When you say that you can hear the coloration, do you mean that you conciously hear a difference, that you can reliably blindly detect it, or what exactly?

BTW, that was an interesting post all around. Thanks!
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