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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 25th September 2007, 03:58 PM   #2201
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Old 25th September 2007, 04:06 PM   #2202
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Default Goto ....

i remember read somewhere, Goto in the beginning, when developing his drivers, where playing with a piano, recording it, and than play it right away next to the piano, tru his hornspeakers and compare the result. They say they were coming very close to original sound.
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Old 25th September 2007, 04:18 PM   #2203
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: Goto ....

Quote:
Originally posted by angeloitacare
i remember read somewhere, Goto in the beginning, when developing his drivers, where playing with a piano, recording it, and than play it right away next to the piano, tru his hornspeakers and compare the result. They say they were coming very close to original sound.
Actually a solo piano is a particularly easy instument to duplicate.

A good friend of mine is a concert pianist (Dickran Atamian). I once recorded him playing an electronic piano (Yamaha) directly from the instrument - no acoustics. We then played this back over my loudspeakers in my listening room. Even the pianist was amazed at how real the image was when one closed their eyes. The vision of a piano was right there. There were some small issues with the quality of the sampling algorithm and the "channels" (some keys on one channel some on the other, I had to cross-fad the source file to get a good center image), but on the whole the experience was amazing.
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Old 25th September 2007, 04:22 PM   #2204
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: observable pontification

Quote:
Originally posted by auplater

Having been involved in electrochemical and aerospace engineering for 35+ years, all I can say with bemusement is the level of "ingineering" exhibited in many (especially loudspeaker) audio components is laughable at best.

John L.
Of what use is engineering in a loudspeaker (or any audio product for that matter) that is sold not based on anything quantitative but on marketing hype and magazine reviews?
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Old 25th September 2007, 04:57 PM   #2205
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Default Re: Re: Goto ....

Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee


Actually a solo piano is a particularly easy instument to duplicate.

A good friend of mine is a concert pianist (Dickran Atamian). I once recorded him playing an electronic piano (Yamaha) directly from the instrument - no acoustics. We then played this back over my loudspeakers in my listening room. Even the pianist was amazed at how real the image was when one closed their eyes. The vision of a piano was right there. There were some small issues with the quality of the sampling algorithm and the "channels" (some keys on one channel some on the other, I had to cross-fad the source file to get a good center image), but on the whole the experience was amazing.
That brings to mind a pet peeve I have... piano image, etc. I have a few sources that are nearly dead-on wrt perceived image, as though the image size is correct between the speakers, at the correct height, with the scale moving from left to right (as though the pianist is sitting back to the listener). Not very many get this correct, nor do many symphonic recordings place the orchestral instruments correctly, for that matter. The effect is amazing on the few that do, but are the recording technicians that inept?

Often times the brass is off-center and up front, the strings are all over the place, or the entire reproduction has a hollow distant sound, as if it was recorded from the lobby. So it's not just the implementation and quality of the reproduction system at fault.

Sorry for the diversion... but I wonder if recording values can descend much further...

John L.
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Old 25th September 2007, 07:50 PM   #2206
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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Quote:
Often times the brass is off-center and up front, the strings are all over the place, or the entire reproduction has a hollow distant sound, as if it was recorded from the lobby. So it's not just the implementation and quality of the reproduction system at fault.
Yes, I listen to KING FM (classical music) from Seattle over the cable as I go around the apartment because they play stuff I'd never hear otherwise. The qualitative variety of recorded sound is enormous: ranging from breathtakingly gorgeous to repellent with the flaws you mention and others as well. I am amazed at how many recordings of conventional works have left and right channels reversed or just unbalanced.

I find the piano image you like to be disorienting: at a live performance the pianist sits side on to the audience with lid opened towards them and the long and short string sounds blend.
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Old 25th September 2007, 11:48 PM   #2207
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Quote:
Originally posted by FrankWW


Yes, I listen to KING FM (classical music) from Seattle over the cable as I go around the apartment because they play stuff I'd never hear otherwise. The qualitative variety of recorded sound is enormous: ranging from breathtakingly gorgeous to repellent with the flaws you mention and others as well. I am amazed at how many recordings of conventional works have left and right channels reversed or just unbalanced.

I find the piano image you like to be disorienting: at a live performance the pianist sits side on to the audience with lid opened towards them and the long and short string sounds blend.
I don't necessarily "like" the left - right presentation of a solo pianist; just know that the intent was to portray the artistic effort this way.

I agree, the open front grand blended piano is appropriate for onstage concerts.

John L.
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Old 26th September 2007, 07:25 AM   #2208
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Just came across this;-

http://www.audiojunkies.com/blog/556...ed-with-a-boom

Cheers ....... Graham.
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Old 26th September 2007, 12:38 PM   #2209
dlr is offline dlr  United States
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Default There is one thing to be said for the subjective

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Originally posted by gedlee
I am often criticized because I downplay the subjective, but I do this for precisely the reasons that you state. The audio media and its jargon allow people to accept poor reproduction as sound quality because "it sounds good to me" - a position that cannot be argued with. But remove the subjective and its not so easy to support this erroneous point of view - in fact its pretty much impossible. It's the bottom line "I know what I like" that allows for the situation that you describe.
I try for what I think is "accurate" sound reproduction from my system. This must done by ear. Unfortunately I can't make side-by-side comparisons with live performances. Most often this is a smooth FR with at times a gentle downward slope at the top end depending on the tweeter used. However, I'm not always trying for perfect reproduction of the recorded material because much recorded material is not engineered well enough. This means that for a large number of recordings the reproduction is not as pleasing as it is for the well engineered ones. Quite often it seems to be the bass region (possibly more room influence than recording) and the mid to upper treble that cause my frustration.

It becomes something of a tradeoff. I either design for the best recordings to sound close to "accurate" to my ears or for the non-optimal to sound closer to "accurate". It's unfortunate that as my reproduction system has improved over the years, the deficiencies in recordings has become more apparent.

To me the question is what compromises, though small, must I make for the bulk of my recordings that I listen to most frequently? More and more it's towards those recordings that are well engineered and I just accept the frustration when listening to the poorer recordings.

Then there are those that may want or need some form or "equalization" due to hearing issues. I don't fall into that category at the moment, but I think that I may see the day when I'll prefer a possible up tilt in response. This won't be "accurate" to what I hear live, but I see no reason not to adjust a bit for "enhancement" at that time so that I "sounds more accurate" to my ears then. I just hope that this is many years in the future.

All one need do is listen to the old J. Gordon Holt monologue with the various microphones to understand just how much variation can exist between recordings.

Dave
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Old 26th September 2007, 01:24 PM   #2210
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: There is one thing to be said for the subjective

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Originally posted by dlr
I try for what I think is "accurate" sound reproduction from my system. This must done by ear.
I couldn't disagree more. "Must [be]" should be changed to "shouldn't be"

Quote:
However, I'm not always trying for perfect reproduction of the recorded material because much recorded material is not engineered well enough.
So you are going to take it upon yourself to "correct it" in your own system? And this makes sense to you?

Quote:
This means that for a large number of recordings the reproduction is not as pleasing as it is for the well engineered ones.

It becomes something of a tradeoff. I either design for the best recordings to sound close to "accurate" to my ears or for the non-optimal to sound closer to "accurate". It's unfortunate that as my reproduction system has improved over the years, the deficiencies in recordings has become more apparent.

To me the question is what compromises, though small, must I make for the bulk of my recordings that I listen to most frequently? More and more it's towards those recordings that are well engineered and I just accept the frustration when listening to the poorer recordings.
Any other approach is senseless (except the "to my ears" part, which is wrong). You cannot correct a bad recording, but you can heighten the enjoyment of a good one. I would never compromise the playback of a great recording to accomodate a poorly engineered one. The facts are that not all recordings are that good - thats life.

Quote:
Then there are those that may want or need some form or "equalization" due to hearing issues. I don't fall into that category at the moment, but I think that I may see the day when I'll prefer a possible up tilt in response. This won't be "accurate" to what I hear live, but I see no reason not to adjust a bit for "enhancement" at that time so that I "sounds more accurate" to my ears then. I just hope that this is many years in the future. [/B]
I do have a hearing loss (heck, I 56 and I played in R&R bands for years). One gets used to their loss and any attempt to change the playback makes the music sound unnatural. Its a fact that people with hearing loses don't realize it - because they have adapted to it. To try and "reverse" the situation is simply folly.

It is well know that people abhor hearing aids until they adapt to them. They just don't sound right until your ears are retrained for the new signal processing. This is also why once you start wearing hearing aids, you pretty much have to wear them all the time. There are not like glasses where you can take them off and put them back on.

If you have a hearing loss that is so bad that it affects your perception of music, then the only solution is hearing aids. Its ludicrous to even consider changing the audio system.

And thats not to mention that hearing loss is not simply a change in frequency response, which is a common misunderstanding. Its a highly nonlinear effect that really cannot be corrected in the audio system.

I'm sorry, but I really had to respond to your post because it had so much that I objected to. No offense intended.
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