Beyond the Ariel - Page 216

Lynn Olson · 22nd September 2007, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by angeloitacare
hello Lynn

i read this thread up to page 55, and i recommend people from AA board to read it, as many aspects of hornspeakers are mentioned as well. I just hope the one that send you the email, is not aloud to post here.

rds Angelo

Well, the "one who is not allowed to post here" was kind enough to send me a personal copy of his posting made in the AA High-Efficiency forum before it was deleted by the AA H-E moderators. That's where the "mastrubative hobby" comment came from. There were many more words like that in the one-paragraph posting.

About a year ago, I posted a quick review of Dr. Geddes' book on John Atwood's Clarisonus blog, and it caused a huge blow-up on the AA H-E forum. I found out very quickly that a minority of horn enthusiasts take any criticism of horns as a direct personal attack, and respond accordingly.

With some difficulty, I prevailed on John Atwood to remove the entire book review from the Clarisonus blog. He left his section, but my portion was removed. It wasn't worth the hassle and name-calling, and I have no intention of ever posting in the AA H-E forum, or on the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here".

I found the whole experience so unpleasant that it took a fair amount of persuasion by Bud Purvine to get me to post here on diyAudio. The much stricter moderation here on diyAudio, along with a refreshing international flavor, is what made the difference.

This is hard to say, Angelo, but please don't make any more posts about me on the AA H-E forum or the site of the "one who is not allowed to post here". I am not welcome in either forum, and I get a blizzard of hostile personal e-mails whenever my name is mentioned. It takes all of my limited diplomatic skills to answer any of these e-mails - a hassle and a pointless energy drain I don't need right now.

I'm sure you meant well, but I've found out the hard way that some folks in audio are friendlier than others. That's why I post here, and not other places.

angeloitacare · 22nd September 2007, 09:17 AM

hello Lynn

well, i have seen the post before it was remooved at AA. You know of what level it was, ( and he writes ) so you understand my concern. I didn't know as well about what happened with you at AA forum. I am more open minded. I grow up assisting my father building speakers and selling them on the local market, in switzerland. He were using mainly Audax woofers with alnico magnet, Audax Medomex midrange, and Electro Voice T350. This back in the seventies. My interest is similar to yours, however, as i started to get involved more intensive with this hobby one year and something ago, i have still very limited knowledge compared to yours, so reading your posts here, and from others, i learn a lot. I like horns , as up to now they give me the most pleasant experience , listening to playback music, but i am well aware of the limitations , too, and if i would find non horn speakers, that do it better for me, why not ?! i would apprechiate if you would give some comments on my ideas.

rds Angelo

Lynn Olson · 22nd September 2007, 09:46 AM

Well, as many people have thoughtfully informed me, I don't know a whole lot about horns. If we are to take the experts at their word, they're over in the AA H-E forum and the "other site", not wasting their time with this thread.

From my non-horn perspective, traditional horns have issues in the time domain. Of the non-traditional horns, Dr. Geddes' foam-filled waveguide has pretty impressive time domain measurements. There were hints of a group buy the last time I looked over in the Geddes thread.

I haven't seen time measurements of LeCleac'h horns, but what I've heard sounded very good. But remember, I don't know anything about horns and have "primitive" tastes, so please don't take what I say seriously.

This whole horn thing has so many religious overtones that I'm bound to offend somebody no matter what I say. So I'll keep it really simple: do some travelling and audition famous horn systems. There are all kinds of competing horn-design philosophies and the proponents of each are confident they have the Keys To The Kingdom. Do not expect kind words for other design approaches - the voice of experience speaking here.

Set aside the words, marketing PR, and in-group thinking and listen for yourself with your favorite music - not the stuff they want to show off. Do not take any Internet or magazine recommendations seriously, no matter how smoothly written and persuasive it appears.

Since the design approaches are sharply drawn, pick the methodology that agrees with your tastes. If you branch off on your own, expect no support from the existing methodologies.

gedlee · 22nd September 2007, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by DDF

To my knowledge, listening fatigue is rarely if ever quantified during formal subjective testing, and only JND's (just noticeable differences) are sought.

Agreed. Listener fatigue would be a very difficult thing to quantify, but I personally feel that it is very important.

gedlee · 22nd September 2007, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lynn Olson
If we are to take the experts at their word, they're over in the AA H-E forum and the "other site", not wasting their time with this thread.

Except that if you don't agree with "them" they drive you away - only concurring commentors allowed.

Lynn Olson · 22nd September 2007, 09:55 AM

True - tell me about it. My tailfeathers are still burnt at the edges.

gedlee · 22nd September 2007, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lynn Olson

About a year ago, I posted a quick review of Dr. Geddes' book on John Atwood's Clarisonus blog, and it caused a huge blow-up on the AA H-E forum. I found out very quickly that a minority of horn enthusiasts take any criticism of horns as a direct personal attack, and respond accordingly.

Lynn - I was not aware of this, but I can well understand it. You can imagine the greetings I got when I went there!

This site is much more respectfull and open minded.

gedlee · 22nd September 2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lynn Olson
True - tell me about it. My tailfeathers are still burnt at the edges.

Lynn - sorry but I don't really want to recall it thanks.

What are you doing up at this time of the morning? I'm up because of Jet lag - what's your excuse?

Lynn Olson · 22nd September 2007, 10:12 AM

More of this midsummer medical weirdness. I've had six weeks of severely disrupted sleep cycles as a result of the severe skin irritation on my back, which made it difficult to tolerate even moderate heat, sit back in a chair, ride in a car, or sleep in a bed.

I spent the days with no shirt on and an air-conditioner vent blowing on me, and rarely went out of the house. At its worst about two weeks in, the thermo-regulation was so disordered I'd be shivering from cold on the front of my body and feeling hot and sunburned on the back. Really bizarre and freaky.

Monday was the first night where I slept the night through, but the wake/sleep cycle is still weird. Thermoregulation is very slowly returning to normal, but I'm staying inside except on the cooler days. Day by day, better and better.

I am very much looking forward to something approaching a normal lifestyle - I'll be able to get out of the house, have fun with my new Pentax K10D and its lens collection, go visit Estes Park in the beautiful Colorado fall weather, and oh yes, maybe do a little speaker building. I'll be able to shake my cane at the RMAF'ers I want to razz, as well.

Lynn Olson · 22nd September 2007, 10:33 AM

This probably sounds really wussy, but truthfully, I'm more drawn to cones-n-ribbons because it's a technology I'm more comfortable with. Horns and waveguides are alien territory, things I don't know very well, and the old-school colorations aren't to my tastes at all.

I was never an Altec or JBL fan, despite living for six years in Los Angeles, birthplace and home of ERPI, Altec, and JBL. I heard plenty of 'em there, even sold a bunch in my first job, but I never liked 'em, despite the huge - and I mean huge - following they have in LA.

But if horns are your thing, be my guest!!! The HF portion of what I've shown is perfectly adaptable to a horn or waveguide, and for that matter, the 8" driver can be discarded in favor of a 500 Hz horn, so you get the horn sound in the crucial voice range. But as for designing the horn itself - uh well, you're on your own.

22nd September 2007, 09:17 AM	#2152
angeloitacare diyAudio Member Join Date: Sep 2006	i did'nt know this background hello Lynn well, i have seen the post before it was remooved at AA. You know of what level it was, ( and he writes ) so you understand my concern. I didn't know as well about what happened with you at AA forum. I am more open minded. I grow up assisting my father building speakers and selling them on the local market, in switzerland. He were using mainly Audax woofers with alnico magnet, Audax Medomex midrange, and Electro Voice T350. This back in the seventies. My interest is similar to yours, however, as i started to get involved more intensive with this hobby one year and something ago, i have still very limited knowledge compared to yours, so reading your posts here, and from others, i learn a lot. I like horns , as up to now they give me the most pleasant experience , listening to playback music, but i am well aware of the limitations , too, and if i would find non horn speakers, that do it better for me, why not ?! i would apprechiate if you would give some comments on my ideas. rds Angelo

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22nd September 2007, 09:46 AM	#2153
Lynn Olson diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern Colorado	Well, as many people have thoughtfully informed me, I don't know a whole lot about horns. If we are to take the experts at their word, they're over in the AA H-E forum and the "other site", not wasting their time with this thread. From my non-horn perspective, traditional horns have issues in the time domain. Of the non-traditional horns, Dr. Geddes' foam-filled waveguide has pretty impressive time domain measurements. There were hints of a group buy the last time I looked over in the Geddes thread. I haven't seen time measurements of LeCleac'h horns, but what I've heard sounded very good. But remember, I don't know anything about horns and have "primitive" tastes, so please don't take what I say seriously. This whole horn thing has so many religious overtones that I'm bound to offend somebody no matter what I say. So I'll keep it really simple: do some travelling and audition famous horn systems. There are all kinds of competing horn-design philosophies and the proponents of each are confident they have the Keys To The Kingdom. Do not expect kind words for other design approaches - the voice of experience speaking here. Set aside the words, marketing PR, and in-group thinking and listen for yourself with your favorite music - not the stuff they want to show off. Do not take any Internet or magazine recommendations seriously, no matter how smoothly written and persuasive it appears. Since the design approaches are sharply drawn, pick the methodology that agrees with your tastes. If you branch off on your own, expect no support from the existing methodologies.

22nd September 2007, 09:55 AM	#2156
Lynn Olson diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern Colorado	True - tell me about it. My tailfeathers are still burnt at the edges.

22nd September 2007, 10:12 AM	#2159
Lynn Olson diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern Colorado	More of this midsummer medical weirdness. I've had six weeks of severely disrupted sleep cycles as a result of the severe skin irritation on my back, which made it difficult to tolerate even moderate heat, sit back in a chair, ride in a car, or sleep in a bed. I spent the days with no shirt on and an air-conditioner vent blowing on me, and rarely went out of the house. At its worst about two weeks in, the thermo-regulation was so disordered I'd be shivering from cold on the front of my body and feeling hot and sunburned on the back. Really bizarre and freaky. Monday was the first night where I slept the night through, but the wake/sleep cycle is still weird. Thermoregulation is very slowly returning to normal, but I'm staying inside except on the cooler days. Day by day, better and better. I am very much looking forward to something approaching a normal lifestyle - I'll be able to get out of the house, have fun with my new Pentax K10D and its lens collection, go visit Estes Park in the beautiful Colorado fall weather, and oh yes, maybe do a little speaker building. I'll be able to shake my cane at the RMAF'ers I want to razz, as well.

22nd September 2007, 10:33 AM	#2160
Lynn Olson diyAudio Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern Colorado	This probably sounds really wussy, but truthfully, I'm more drawn to cones-n-ribbons because it's a technology I'm more comfortable with. Horns and waveguides are alien territory, things I don't know very well, and the old-school colorations aren't to my tastes at all. I was never an Altec or JBL fan, despite living for six years in Los Angeles, birthplace and home of ERPI, Altec, and JBL. I heard plenty of 'em there, even sold a bunch in my first job, but I never liked 'em, despite the huge - and I mean huge - following they have in LA. But if horns are your thing, be my guest!!! The HF portion of what I've shown is perfectly adaptable to a horn or waveguide, and for that matter, the 8" driver can be discarded in favor of a 500 Hz horn, so you get the horn sound in the crucial voice range. But as for designing the horn itself - uh well, you're on your own.