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Old 11th September 2007, 08:51 PM   #1951
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Quote:
Originally posted by nullspace


Last time I saw, they were upwards of $2k per pair with options like silver voice coils pushing them over $3k. The NA distributer, Gilles Gagne, posts on diyAudio as 'lrntglls', so perhaps he'll enlighten as to the latest pricing. I lucked out and snagged a 'gently used' pair a couple of years ago at a substantial discount.

I will add that I have an earlier pair and that supposedly the vintage they're selling now is different, so if you're looking for strictly current production mine might not be the best proxy but the offer stands in any case.

Regards,
John
Thanks, very kind of you. I'll be trying the prosound route first, maybe even finding out if there are special OEM versions that might qualify - many manufacturers make "special" versions that are not listed on the websites.
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Old 11th September 2007, 10:00 PM   #1952
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Originally posted by Lynn Olson
... and worst of all, a lot of the drivers are now made in China, with typical Chinese quality control, while keeping European prices!


Have to agree with you there. Some of the newer Peerless drivers are "Designed in Denmark” and apparently made in China. I have had a number of them and the first (early production) set was made in Denmark and were excellent. The next set was early production from China and they measured significantly different. When I contacted Peerless (or Tymphany, the new parent company) they were very interested in the difference and sent me a matched set of replacements which were now different again form any of the previous drivers. All had visibly different construction at the VC former/cone junction. Also of interest was the price increase with Chinese production.
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Old 12th September 2007, 12:30 AM   #1953
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally posted by jzagaja


Here you are Vifa 10 BGS.

It looks like we cannot judge by using CSD which driver is more detailed or we should measure at -60dB? For example an old Audiovector M1S which is a typical polypropylene minimonitor based on Vifa drivers.

I've found Manger very natural, Alexandar from RAAL ribbons thin and without body. That's a mystery for me. Without any doubt his ribbons has the cleanest impulses so far.
I looked at the CSD for the Vifa 10 BGS and think it's pretty close to Jordans, I can't really tell because I normally look at the first 0.4 ms while most data show 4ms or so without enough resolution.

I have not measured Mangers, but first listening impression was that some detail was lacking. This is possibly due to the large but soft diaphram where multiple modes exists to some extent even though they are well damped. But I would have to measure myself to be sure.

Quote:
Originally posted by jzagaja
When I was at Herr Manger house in June he used holoprofile reflectors and bipolar firing - no problem with high frequencies and beaming. Everywhere the picture was the same and very good, natural (he is active in recording field as well). The sound was quiet indeed even at max volume possible on modified Sony XA-50ES and class A power amplifiers with 500KHz bandwidth. Maybe it is a lack of "transient noise"?

I don't understand low frequencies - many people complains that Manger is hard to mate on bass, others says that low mass rigid aluminium drivers like Bandor 150 are imprecise in low frequencies. What we are looking for?
I think if you go to higher SPLs, the Mangers may not be able to move enough air to be compatible with woofers, thus the need to cross over at higher frequency, which I would guess 450Hz would be good.

Low mass aluminum drivers are really very complicated to tune. Having examined some Bandors and used Jordan JX125, I think the the cone shape and material stiffness needs to be adjusted a little to get a better balance. This is one thing I hope will happen with the Jordans through the new company.
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Old 12th September 2007, 12:39 AM   #1954
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally posted by john k...



Have to agree with you there. Some of the newer Peerless drivers are "Designed in Denmark?and apparently made in China. I have had a number of them and the first (early production) set was made in Denmark and were excellent. The next set was early production from China and they measured significantly different. When I contacted Peerless (or Tymphany, the new parent company) they were very interested in the difference and sent me a matched set of replacements which were now different again form any of the previous drivers. All had visibly different construction at the VC former/cone junction. Also of interest was the price increase with Chinese production.
I think it's a company quality policy issue.

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Old 12th September 2007, 02:52 AM   #1955
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Hi Lynn

Its been years since I sampled any hifi drivers while I look through Madisound frequently. Frankly, it would appear that many drivers are designed for appearance and technical appeal as a well as function.
I do sample a lot of pro sound drivers however and since what I do is try to design speakers with hopes of the hifi experience for a crowd, have some thoughts which might be applicable here.
Although to be honest, I have never built an open baffle speaker before other than electrostatic panels.

Many of the things that are wrong with drivers, get worse much faster than the level increases. As a result “headroom is your friend”.

A bad sign (regardless of cone material) for a direct radiator is a large peak(s) associated with its hf roll off. It is assumed that a steep or low crossover fixes this problem but it is not gone. So, picture a driver with a big mound in its response associated with breakup.
Lets say that mound is 10 dB high above the “flat” response zone, this represents an frequency dependent acoustic gain element AFTER the voice coil.
So, here is where it is not fixed even with a brickwall crossover.
The driver’s motor produces harmonic distortion, that acoustic gain amplifies it by 10X (10dB) for harmonics when the fundamental is N fraction of the peak.
In other words, if the mound were at 1200Hz, the third harmonic of a fundamental at 400Hz is amplified by the acoustic gain even if one had a 120,000dB / octave digimatic crossover at 500Hz. Here it is better to fix the source.

Exotic materials are more commonly known for “those” kinds of peaks because the focus is usually on strength to weight and not damping.
The best radiator material is the best trade off of all the requirements and it is still very hard to beat paper processed fibers. You inclination to look there is I think a good one.

It would be nice if mfr’s of pro sound speakers had more information, it would be nice if they all had the same rulers so far as Watts and dB. You would not believe what kind of BS goes on, there are small speakers, which claim peaks of 148dB! (Possible only with a lightning strike directed to the speakers terminals). It makes selling products in that industry a weird business. Fortunately many folks can measure and do side by side comparisons too.

For the person looking at prodrivers though it is much better, most have at least a response curve and you know that if they have peaks and bumps, they will have trails in the csd.
At work, I use drivers made be B&C, BMS, Belisle, 18Sound and have some made to spec by Eminance, Celestion and Misco. All of them make very good devices.
So far as distortion, speakers change with different with frequencies and levels, it is hard to quantify that many dimensions.
In general, what I find is that if you run a driver at –30dB from where it is distorting, it is pretty well behaved. This would be 1/1000 rated power.
Starting at about 1/10 to 1/8 of a drivers rated power, power compression will begin to alter the drivers parameters / response. The time constant for this effect (reduction in SPL compared to ideal driver etc) is VERY short for most tweeters, and reaches ten’s of seconds for a large woofer VC.
Also, when you exceed Xmax, distortion skyrockets.
For dynamic linearity and harmonic distortion, headroom is your best friend.
Anyway, some thoughts, the dogs are clawing through the back door, don’t want an accident.
Best,

Tom Danley
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Old 12th September 2007, 04:55 AM   #1956
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Danley


Many of the things that are wrong with drivers, get worse much faster than the level increases. As a result “headroom is your friend”.

A bad sign (regardless of cone material) for a direct radiator is a large peak(s) associated with its hf roll off. It is assumed that a steep or low crossover fixes this problem but it is not gone. So, picture a driver with a big mound in its response associated with breakup.
Lets say that mound is 10 dB high above the “flat” response zone, this represents an frequency dependent acoustic gain element AFTER the voice coil.

So, here is where it is not fixed even with a brickwall crossover.

The driver’s motor produces harmonic distortion, that acoustic gain amplifies it by 10X (10dB) for harmonics when the fundamental is N fraction of the peak. In other words, if the mound were at 1200Hz, the third harmonic of a fundamental at 400Hz is amplified by the acoustic gain even if one had a 120,000dB / octave digimatic crossover at 500Hz.

Here it is better to fix the source.

Exotic materials are more commonly known for “those” kinds of peaks because the focus is usually on strength to weight and not damping. The best radiator material is the best trade off of all the requirements and it is still very hard to beat paper processed fibers.

Tom Danley

Thanks, JohnK and Tom, your comments, along with all the others, are always appreciated, even if I sound a little cross at times - I've been going through a little medical hassle the last month, and it does affect my mood at times. It appears to be going away on its own, thank goodness.

As the previous posts indicate, I was once very pleased with the Scandinavian family of drivers. But I really feel with the changes in ownership and the loss of the original engineering crew, they've lost their way, which has had a negative effect on the entire high-end speaker industry. I see a gradual decline in musicality, more emphasis on gimmicky cones and tweeters, both of which reflect a loss of continuity in management and engineering.

The join between the VC and the cone might sound like a tiny thing, but it isn't - this region has a dramatic effect on the sound, and measurements, of the driver. The acceleration forces reach their maximum in this tiny region, and it has to remembered the VC itself is a parasitic mass that doesn't (and shouldn't) radiate any sound at all.

If the speed of sound between the cone and VC former is different (and it will be if they're made of different materials), a mechanical reflection is set up between the two, right at the angled bend at the base of the cone. This reflection then sets up additional resonances in the spider and adjacent dust cap. The seemingly minor choice of construction materials (glues) in this area has a critical effect on the sound of the entire hifi system. To "overlook" this part of the driver is like delivering a car without a steering wheel or a transmission.

I now fully agree with Tom about the many benefits of high-headroom design. I used to be in the audiophile camp, but I think audiophile driver design has reached a dead end, and we'll be seeing more progress in the prosound arena. The exotic prosound cooling techniques have an interesting payoff for audiophiles, because it greatly reduces the time constant for the VC to cool itself - this a good thing! Remember, even with ultra-efficient drivers, more than 90% of those costly amplifier watts make no sound at all, but merely heats the tiny voice coil - which then has to be cooled as quickly as possible.

The distortion reduction aspect, combined with a huge improvement in headroom, is the greatest, most audible benefit of all. In home use, the driver will never approach its true limits - this takes us back to the kind of headroom that hifi enthusiasts enjoyed back in the Fifties, when the movie theater and consumer world were closer together.

A subtle downside to high-headroom truly efficient drivers is they reveal the truth about high-power Class AB transistor amplifiers - they don't sound all that good in the milliwatt region. In the pro world, it doesn't matter that much, since we're talking about kilowatts anyway, and in the audiophile world, the "exotic" speakers are such power sponges the amp never gets into the low-power region for long. The dramatically lower distortion of high-efficiency speakers reveals a lot more about amplifier sonics.
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Old 12th September 2007, 07:30 AM   #1957
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Hey Lynn,
Looks like my Buddy John B. will be at RMAF. Not as an official exhibitor, just a "cowboy." John has been building O.B. speakers with pro drivers for many years.

The main rig he will bring sounds a lot like what has been discussed here.
Four twelves + a tweeter per side on a flat baffle. AFAIK, it will go like this:

Bass. 3x12" Old Eminence auto subs that use a magnet structure from 18s . Big, very heavy thumpers that move plenty air.

Mid. 1x Beta 12LTA. (Old style, small x-max). Used for great dynamics and tonal balance.

High. 1x dome tweeter. A SEAS, I think. Easy to crossover to the BetaLTA.

It will be a passive crossover, John is the King of crossovers. Might be bi-amped, not sure. I doubt it will be as refined as what your are planing with the BTA, but will certainly be similar in concept. Certainly worth your time for a listen and look. I sure look forward to hearing them.
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Old 12th September 2007, 12:03 PM   #1958
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I sure hope his is a king of crossovers- because going from a 12" to a dome will be a royal pain in the you know what! Huge swing in dispersion from a badly beaming 12". Funny, seems that maybe the old standby 12" 3" 1" isn't such a bad idea.....
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Old 12th September 2007, 01:09 PM   #1959
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tom Danley
Hi Lynn

A bad sign (regardless of cone material) for a direct radiator is a large peak(s) associated with its hf roll off. It is assumed that a steep or low crossover fixes this problem but it is not gone. So, picture a driver with a big mound in its response associated with breakup.

Lets say that mound is 10 dB high above the “flat” response zone, this represents an frequency dependent acoustic gain element AFTER the voice coil. So, here is where it is not fixed even with a brickwall crossover. The driver’s motor produces harmonic distortion, that acoustic gain amplifies it by 10X (10dB) for harmonics when the fundamental is N fraction of the peak.

Tom Danley

I couldn't agree with you more. This is one rerason I particualrly don't like metal cones. The SEAS Excel metal cones, for example, have very smooth and very linear frequency response up to the point where the breakup comes in. And to me the audibility of the effect of the breakup, distortion or otherwise, are clearly audible with the crossover in place. Door bells and tuning forks should ring, not driver cones.
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Old 12th September 2007, 01:11 PM   #1960
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Quote:
Originally posted by Lynn Olson



The join between the VC and the cone might sound like a tiny thing, but it isn't - this region has a dramatic effect on the sound, and measurements, of the driver.
Exactly my point. After all, this is the point (the only point) where energy is transfered to the cone.
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