Re: Digital vs. Analog sound
Questions like this are more appropriate for the "source" or "amplifier" threads. In short, digital sound is considered sound characteristics generally associated with digital equipment like CD players etc. and analog sound is considered sound characteristics associated with the traditional analog equipment like LP record players or tape decks etc.. If you cannot distinguish any differences, then the terms really mean nothing.dobias said:
fred76 said:
DrP - damped resonance parafeed (part 3 and 4 w/ spreadsheet) by VS:
http://www.siteswithstyle.com/voltsecond/Parafeed_fun/Parafeed_fun.html
http://www.siteswithstyle.com/voltsecond/Damping_ringing_XFMRS/Damping_ringing_in_xfmrs.html
Thanks for the link, this is a useful option for parafeed. Note the degree of subsonic peaking for some the alignments - nothing I would ignore, considering the dramatic effect on IM distortion that even moderate amounts of subsonic peaking can cause.
As for other options, I dunno. Transistor amps (traditional Class A, sliding-bias Class AB, and fixed-bias Class AB) can sound surprisingly different depending on subtle differences in driver current delivery and linearity, quality of power-supply regulation for the input and driver stages, and susceptibility of the feedback network to ambient RF energy picked up by the speaker cable. I'm looking into the better-regarded prosound amplifiers for the bass-amp duties - these seem to be a better value than the ridiculously overpriced "audiophile" transistor amps.
Transistor-amp production costs are dominated by the price of the chassis (really!), the power transformer, the bank of electrolytic caps, the array of the output transistors, the labor of wiring and assembling these parts, and very little else. The entire circuit board and all the parts on it cost almost nothing compared to these five items - yet it is the circuit that makes the difference between a really bad and a really good amplfier. Thus, there really is only a moderate correlation between price, prestige, and sound quality.
Tube amps are different. All the parts are fairly expensive, along with point-to-point wiring (which is best from the standpoint of sonics and eliminating circuit-board capacitance). In terms of real dollars, actually, tube amps now cost the same as they did in the mid-Fifties (back then, gold was $35/troy ounce, you could buy a Chevrolet Bel Aire for $2150 with many options, and well-built houses were $10,000).
It's transistors that have gotten much cheaper in real-dollar terms, to the point where Chinese-made electronics are almost free at the point of production in China. For things that require quality ingredients, craftsmanship, and capital inputs, real-dollar prices remain constant. I was surprised to discover that a fine Roman toga cost several ounces of gold - pretty much the same price as a good English or Italian business suit today.
I was also surprised to discover for American history from 1776 to 1933, the price of gold was fixed at $20/ounce, then stayed at $35/ounce from 1933 to 1971. We can thank Nixon for decoupling the dollar from gold - in effect, paying for the Vietnam War by inflating the currency, a centuries-old trick of European monarchs. Looks like the Afghan/Iraq/Iran(?) wars will be paid the same way - debasing the currency to pay for a war.
By the way, there's a good post by my friend John Atwood on the Ran Prieur blog - scroll down to November 28th. John's description of state of the US tech industry is right on the money - and he's worked for Intel, Sequent, and Apple computers. I've worked for Audionics and Tektronix, and that was my experience as well. The kind of build-it-yourself items that were so common is the US during the Fifties are now only found in Asia, as the US has lost one key industry after another.
Re: Re: Digital vs. Analog sound
If we went back on the gold standard there would be several problems. First an ounce would need to be 35000.00 US an ounce to cover the debt and real inflation, two, the same crooks that took us off the standard are the same crooks that now own the gold.
What needs to happen is firing the private Federal Reserve, Central Banks and all private 'money out of thin air' greed mongers and replace them with a trusted board of real Americans representing the US people. It can still be paper money, no need for gold backing. This would stabilize the dollar, eliminate the 'inflation tax' through stopping inflation, lower taxes, debt, poverty, war and restore the strength and Republic of the country to pre 1913 'illegal Federal Reserve' levels - Kennedy tried it and was murdered --
Off topic sign off...........
Lynn Olson said:
If we went back on the gold standard there would be several problems. First an ounce would need to be 35000.00 US an ounce to cover the debt and real inflation, two, the same crooks that took us off the standard are the same crooks that now own the gold.
What needs to happen is firing the private Federal Reserve, Central Banks and all private 'money out of thin air' greed mongers and replace them with a trusted board of real Americans representing the US people. It can still be paper money, no need for gold backing. This would stabilize the dollar, eliminate the 'inflation tax' through stopping inflation, lower taxes, debt, poverty, war and restore the strength and Republic of the country to pre 1913 'illegal Federal Reserve' levels - Kennedy tried it and was murdered --
Off topic sign off...........
Hi Lynn,
You don't see a lot of comments about topics other than Audio here, and it isn't because we aren't interested in such things or are unsympathetic to people's views, but we have a rather strict policy that we don't discuss political ideas here. What's political? well if it isn't about DIY Audio or pointless comments about oneself or family or friends or the audio business that's one indication. I understand that your comment was begun based on some aspect of audio, but..
Not only does this policy cut down on attacks and bad feelings, that are sure to arise in this proudly international forum, but it cuts down a lot on long off topic discussions..
Variac
You don't see a lot of comments about topics other than Audio here, and it isn't because we aren't interested in such things or are unsympathetic to people's views, but we have a rather strict policy that we don't discuss political ideas here. What's political? well if it isn't about DIY Audio or pointless comments about oneself or family or friends or the audio business that's one indication. I understand that your comment was begun based on some aspect of audio, but..
Not only does this policy cut down on attacks and bad feelings, that are sure to arise in this proudly international forum, but it cuts down a lot on long off topic discussions..
Variac
Variac said:Hi Lynn,
You don't see a lot of comments about topics other than Audio here, and it isn't because we aren't interested in such things or are unsympathetic to people's views, but we have a rather strict policy that we don't discuss political ideas here. What's political? well if it isn't about DIY Audio or pointless comments about oneself or family or friends or the audio business that's one indication. I understand that your comment was begun based on some aspect of audio, but..
Not only does this policy cut down on attacks and bad feelings, that are sure to arise in this proudly international forum, but it cuts down a lot on long off topic discussions..
Variac
Mea Culpa, Sorry!!!
Variac, you have an excellent point - in the current volatile political climate (worldwide) any kind of political discussion will really drag things off-topic quickly. There are many many other political forums where people can shout at each other behind an anonymous keyboard.
Returning the more comfortable territory of amplifier design, I would caution readers not to put any great weight on magazine or Internet reviews of electronics. To have any relevance at all to the individual hifi owner, several conditions all have to apply at the same time:
1) Is the reviewer (and their magazine/site) honest? There is a lot of corruption in the reviewing business these days - $45,000 components given away for free to the reviewer, which the reviewer promptly resells on Audiogon after the review comes out. This kind of thing happens more often than you might think.
2) Does the reviewer's musical taste match your own? I'm not a jazz fan, so the sound of "Kind of Blue" doesn't matter a whole lot to me, likewise whether the system can play heavily EQ-ed and compressed hip-hop or dance-club music. Music that has a sparse spectrum makes different demands than music with a dense, filled-in spectrum - low levels of IM distortion (and good retrieval of ambient information) is going to be much more important for the latter type of spectrum. This affects both choice of amplifiers and speakers.
3) Different people hear in different ways - including recording professionals. From personal experience, I know people with excellent taste in audio and music who seem to be completely unable to hear horn coloration, and care very little for realistic-sounding spatial impression (not the same as imaging, by the way). They're not Return-To-Mono types, but they hear stereo differently than I do. Since 2-speaker stereo playback is a learned illusion that about 5~10% of the population can't hear at all, this isn't surprising.
4) Lastly, you really can't understand what a reviewer is saying unless you visit their home and hear theirs system for yourself. This will immediately put all of their writing in context. When I was writing for Positive Feedback magazine in the early Nineties, I visited five different reviewers who lived in Portland (Oregon) and heard their systems. I didn't care for any of them. They probably felt the same way about mine.
Fortunately, PF has never had a Stereophile or Absolute Sound "style guide" that all reviews had to conform to (as well as a rewrite by an editor that never heard the item under review), so everyone could write as they pleased, which gave PF an amusing and anarchic quality compared to the buttoned-downed sameness of other magazines. What readers didn't necessarily know was that editors and reviewers cordially disagreed with each other, even when they lived in the same town and were personal friends.
5) This applies to me too. I like Nelson Pass as a designer and as a person, but have never warmed up to his amplifiers. I like Mike Sanders of Quicksilver as a designer and a person, and very much like his amplifiers (and have liked them since the late Seventies). Tastes are very individual here, and don't even correlate with whether or not you like the design philosophy. The sound itself is an independent variable.
6) I frequently fail to meet to my own design goals, even though I know what they are and where I'm going. The Ariels had a different set of strengths than I expected, and the Amity and Karna turned out similarly. My basic goals were met, which was gratifying, but like children, each had their own quite unexpected personality which emerged over time.
The extremely high resolution of the Amity and Karna wasn't a direct design goal, and made chasing out the remaining colorations much more extensive and difficult than I expected. I expect the high efficiency, low IM distortion, and absence of cabinet coloration in the new speaker will only expose driver colorations all the more. Don't kid yourself - drivers have very strong personalities that are largely beyond the range of equalization. You either like them or you don't, and that's a matter of direct audition, not theory.
So if you're auditioning amplifiers for any high-efficiency dipole, I'd start with an amplifier that sounds good on Klipsch, JBL, or Altec speakers. I'm not a fan of these speakers, but they do reveal bad amplifiers right away, and in a very harsh light.
I should add that most active crossovers are sonically quite poor compared to a well-designed line stage - slow 13V/uSec opamps working in Class AB with reactive loads, 3-pin regulator power supplies with lots of HF hash, tube-based crossovers with 12AX7's running at miniscule currents and slewing into the reactive feedback networks, digital crossovers with iPod-grade ADCs and DACs, a lower effective bit depth than the original recording, and poorly chosen dither and resampling algorithms, the list goes on. All of these can badly compromise the ultimate quality of the loudspeaker system.
Pro amp
One option is to get something like a Behringer EP-2500 (cheap with a lot of watts). I opened one up and it uses Toshiba chips. Replace the stock fan with a silent fan from company such as Scythe, and noise will not be an issue.
The stock donut transformer is sort of tinny. Maybe, replace the stock power supply with a monster donut hosted in a separate 2U rack enclosure.
http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=eng
One option is to get something like a Behringer EP-2500 (cheap with a lot of watts). I opened one up and it uses Toshiba chips. Replace the stock fan with a silent fan from company such as Scythe, and noise will not be an issue.
The stock donut transformer is sort of tinny. Maybe, replace the stock power supply with a monster donut hosted in a separate 2U rack enclosure.
http://www.behringer.com/EP2500/index.cfm?lang=eng
Lynn Olson said:
The IS one way to *mostly* circumvent this problem with respect to lower freq. reproduction and "boosting".
DVC drivers (i.e. having one coil as a part of the loudspeaker (driven by the quality amplifier) and the other being driven off of a cheap but serviceable "active" solution).
"Finding" the right driver that is a DVC driver though.. THATS another issue.
Re: Re: Re: Pro amp
Alternatively, if you want to build and it's for LF only, UcD or 41Hz Truepath.
If you're looking for highish power, any decent secondhand mains freq pro/PA poweramp would fit the bill. Thy tend to be reasonably priced at the moment as most mobile rigs are moving towards newer light weight units which isn't an ssue for home use.agent.5 said:
Alternatively, if you want to build and it's for LF only, UcD or 41Hz Truepath.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Pro amp
Well whay are you talking about upsizing the supply?agent.5 said:
Inferior copy or original? I go for the original. You do pay for the behringer name in quality and reliability. If you're hung up on a name, buy an old Yamaha P series or a Perreaux. Indestructable and not bad sounding.agent.5 said:
Lynn,
I would be interested in your thoughts on how to create a less compromised active crossover. I was thinking of something like an Aikido CF using a 6H6, and a Plus and Minus supply. The other option for me would be to modify my DCX2496 by replace the analog sections with transformers.
Maybe we should start a thread?
Doug
Hi Lynn
Can't help myself, but WHAT is that you guys are looking at?
GOTCHA!!!
Maybe I can get away with this by explaining to others here, the photo was taken (by me) at the European Triode Festival 2004. That was about audio, right?
That is John Atwood in the middle but I forget who is the third Yankee?
Joe R.
Thought for the day: Rich man's mantra, the world is my walk-in closet.
Can't help myself, but WHAT is that you guys are looking at?
GOTCHA!!!
Maybe I can get away with this by explaining to others here, the photo was taken (by me) at the European Triode Festival 2004. That was about audio, right?
That is John Atwood in the middle but I forget who is the third Yankee?
Joe R.
Thought for the day: Rich man's mantra, the world is my walk-in closet.
Gary P said:
Hi Gary
That's right! It was Gary Dahl. Should have remembered as Dahl is a Danish name like mine. And Pete M plus Steve B were there. That was the year we DID have a Yank invasion on the foreshore of Lake Constance.
I've got pictures of you as well, but I won't embarrass you. I left the day before you got to Munich with Lynn and also visited the polyteknik, or whatever it's called - Deutsche Museum, saw an Me 262 for the first time in the flesh... erh... metal. They must have made a significant audible noise. They reckon they broke the sound (audio) barrier when they were diving.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Messerschmitt_Me_262.jpg - recognise the location?
Better stop there or I'll also get into trouble.
I note that Lynn made a reference to my Crossover Philosophy in #2617 http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1344925#post1344925 and I haven't responded yet.
But one of his primary goals is complete 100% vector summing of the drivers at the listener's position, that is #1 with me.
Lynn Olson said:
So true, you can walk around while the speakers are on and they don't do funnny things inside your ears. My problem, my clients DEMAND 'Linear Phase' - and it is possible to produce square waves at the listening position even if not all drivers are in the same phase. But in front of the speaker they must be, even if the driver array focuses at, say, 2 metres and beyond, they should still behave at 1 metre (ultra-nearfield?) and as we move laterally.
For those who haven't read the article that Lynn has:
Crossover Philosophy: http://customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_17.htm
And later added:
The Renegade Tweeter Theory: http://customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_19.htm
Gary P said:
I didn't make it either this year. Went last year with Allen. We met Tim de P.
Joe R.
Joe Rasmussen said:Hi Lynn
Can't help myself, but WHAT is that you guys are looking at?
GOTCHA!!!
Maybe I can get away with this by explaining to others here, the photo was taken (by me) at the European Triode Festival 2004. That was about audio, right?
That is John Atwood in the middle but I forget who is the third Yankee?
Joe R.
Me on the left (predictably), John Atwood in the center, and Gary Dahl on the right.
I think we, as naive Americans, were amazed that prostitutes openly advertised in the back pages of the daily German and Swiss newspapers. None of us could read German, but it wasn't too hard to figure out what the ads were saying - we also learned a little real-world German. Something that would cause a major head-exploding experience for all the millions of fundies who live here is no big deal in the German-speaking world.
I went back to America and tried to get Karna to move - I told her, "Honey, it's like the Sixties over there! Europe is a really cool place!" Well, of course, there's the minor matter of living costs ... and all of relatives are here ... etc. etc. We did end up moving, but it was from Washington State to Colorado. Well, at least we get the mountains where we are now - all we have to do is look out the windows to the West and there is the vast expanse of the Rockies with the snow sparkling on the peaks.
I also appreciate that hifi culture is alive and well here in Colorado - lots of manufacturers and enthusiasts, which is why the RMAF is the success that it is. There are a lot of parallels between the RMAF and ETF, although the RMAF is more focussed on "commercial" hifi and is aimed at the public, and the ETF is for the really hard-core builders. But there's a lot of overlap anyway, and the RMAF has a big contingent of Germans (including Frank Schroeder) who travel here every year.
Joe, thanks for posting the picture - lots and lots of good memories of the 2004 ETF. Maybe I can get to the 2008 ETF, here's hoping I can, anyway!
P.S. Hmm, looking closer at the picture, I think that's the cover of the Guardian newspaper with its memorable "Four More Years" graphic - a little present from one of my correspondents. A graphic that not one American newspaper, magazine, or TV station would dare print or even suggest - thus the startled and humorous reactions from John and Gary.
P.P.S. Joe, thanks again for the links to your site. A system I designed for Audionics in 1979 used low-Q 2nd-order acoustic crossovers and substantial physical driver delay to get reasonably good linear-phase response. I plan to re-visit that approach with the new system, since there is the option of offsetting both the mid and HF drivers for best impulse response.
Hi All,
Since the thread owner is wandering OT.
I am posting this here because it is close to my audio heart and I want others to know about it. Here is a contact link to the man behind this post.
http://www.recone.com/c8pssclassifi...ddetail&adid=37
Dale Harder is the real deal. He has been repairing, rebuilding and making brand new Walsh Ohm F and A drivers for 30 years! I have spent a couple of hours with him on the phone. This is the man you want to have rebuild your Ohm F's. He no longer calls them Ohm anything, at least for his new production, out of deference to Ohm, who he has worked with in the past.
He has forwarded to me some high resolution pictures and I have put them up on my google photo site, along with the rest of the pics of the EnABL process, as applied to alleged pistonic direct radiators.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvin...alAllMetalOhmFS
The workmanship looks to be really excellent. Makes me very very jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And, yes, of course I am discussing the EnABL process with him. After all, it was a pair of Ohm F's that launched that funny pattern. EnABL was originally intended as a proper termination for Walsh drivers. That it also properly terminates pseudo pistonic drivers, just shows that Lincoln Walsh knew exactly what he was talking about.
Bud
Since the thread owner is wandering OT.
I am posting this here because it is close to my audio heart and I want others to know about it. Here is a contact link to the man behind this post.
http://www.recone.com/c8pssclassifi...ddetail&adid=37
Dale Harder is the real deal. He has been repairing, rebuilding and making brand new Walsh Ohm F and A drivers for 30 years! I have spent a couple of hours with him on the phone. This is the man you want to have rebuild your Ohm F's. He no longer calls them Ohm anything, at least for his new production, out of deference to Ohm, who he has worked with in the past.
He has forwarded to me some high resolution pictures and I have put them up on my google photo site, along with the rest of the pics of the EnABL process, as applied to alleged pistonic direct radiators.
http://picasaweb.google.com/hpurvin...alAllMetalOhmFS
The workmanship looks to be really excellent. Makes me very very jealous!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And, yes, of course I am discussing the EnABL process with him. After all, it was a pair of Ohm F's that launched that funny pattern. EnABL was originally intended as a proper termination for Walsh drivers. That it also properly terminates pseudo pistonic drivers, just shows that Lincoln Walsh knew exactly what he was talking about.
Bud