Re: Re: I hate to toot my own horn
Yes, I purchased my double-high RAAL's direct from Alexander at the RMAF, and they sit quietly in my basement right now. Beautifully made, by the way. Jon also bought a pair of single-high RAAL's at the show. Alexander brought a third pair, don't know if he sold them at the show or not - he may have, he was visiting a lot of vendors, including Feastrex.
By replacing the faceplate, I can convert the double-high RAALs into a quartet of standard RAALs running at 95 dB instead of 100 dB efficiency. They are more vertically directive than dome tweeters, true, but they sound a lot better, too.
As for the EnABL demo, Jon did such a subtle job of applying the EnABL I was never exactly sure which was which - I certainly couldn't see it from the sitting position. Friday night it was the EnABL vs non-EnABL demo, and Saturday night it was the temporary addition of the RAAL tweeter to the non-EnABL'ed Lowther PM6A's.
agent.5 said:
Yes, I purchased my double-high RAAL's direct from Alexander at the RMAF, and they sit quietly in my basement right now. Beautifully made, by the way. Jon also bought a pair of single-high RAAL's at the show. Alexander brought a third pair, don't know if he sold them at the show or not - he may have, he was visiting a lot of vendors, including Feastrex.
By replacing the faceplate, I can convert the double-high RAALs into a quartet of standard RAALs running at 95 dB instead of 100 dB efficiency. They are more vertically directive than dome tweeters, true, but they sound a lot better, too.
As for the EnABL demo, Jon did such a subtle job of applying the EnABL I was never exactly sure which was which - I certainly couldn't see it from the sitting position. Friday night it was the EnABL vs non-EnABL demo, and Saturday night it was the temporary addition of the RAAL tweeter to the non-EnABL'ed Lowther PM6A's.
If I had the money and influence, I'd ask the man who makes the Feastrex to build a field-coil or monster Alnico 9" full-range without the whizzer cone (sorry, purists, but the whizzer whizzes all over the best mid-range in the world) and commission him to build a field-coil or large Alnico open ribbon. I think THAT would be something.
By the way, you diy'ers would really like this guy who makes the Feastrex. He is a wonderful craftsman and has a great deal of enthusiasm. The drivers are extremely high-priced, but I would challenge anyone here to build a driver using those materials with the sheer mass at which he employs them and make a living doing it. I don't think the guy makes any money at all judging from his appearance (his dress is strictly Salvation Army boutique).
John
jlsem said:
With all due respect: "Yeah, right...".
Moving on...
Lynn,
Good to know you already homed in to the double-high RAAL tweeter. Did RMAF helped crystalize the choice of other drivers and help the progress of this project ? Or is it only your mobility the only hinder a.t.m (and that improving all the time, I hope).
Rgrds,
Florian
OT but...
it makes no difference what a manufacturer makes in terms of profit. The market and the marketing skills of the manufacturer will set the profit that any product can yield. In a free market it is just that the best products should sell for the highest price. I don't hear many people getting upset over the price of a box of rice crispies which is no more than a couple of cups of rice.
Most small scale manufacturers have low volume and pay retail for all thier supplies and materials. Ecconomy of scale only applies when you have high volume. The small scale artisan who does what he loves regardless of profit can (and do) set the pace for main stream manufacturers by reminding the consumer what excellence is all about.
To Lynn: can you explain how a dynamic driver can possibly achieve close to ESL levels of distortion? If we limit the comparrison to 150 Hz and up and just looking at all the components of a dynamic driver which can colour the sound Vs an ESL which is as simple as it gets from a mechanical point of view. With modern micron thickness diaphragm films air load damps and controls the diaphragm. This yields near perfect pistonic behaviour along with superb transient response that cone drivers dream of. ESL's can and do measure like SS amplifiers in terms of distortion. Don't get me wrong I am listening to a set of full range drivers rght now and I like them. Aside from true ribbons what dynamic cone driver can match such levels of performance? So what is it that makes some cone drivers sound so good? Regards Mray James.
it makes no difference what a manufacturer makes in terms of profit. The market and the marketing skills of the manufacturer will set the profit that any product can yield. In a free market it is just that the best products should sell for the highest price. I don't hear many people getting upset over the price of a box of rice crispies which is no more than a couple of cups of rice.
Most small scale manufacturers have low volume and pay retail for all thier supplies and materials. Ecconomy of scale only applies when you have high volume. The small scale artisan who does what he loves regardless of profit can (and do) set the pace for main stream manufacturers by reminding the consumer what excellence is all about.
To Lynn: can you explain how a dynamic driver can possibly achieve close to ESL levels of distortion? If we limit the comparrison to 150 Hz and up and just looking at all the components of a dynamic driver which can colour the sound Vs an ESL which is as simple as it gets from a mechanical point of view. With modern micron thickness diaphragm films air load damps and controls the diaphragm. This yields near perfect pistonic behaviour along with superb transient response that cone drivers dream of. ESL's can and do measure like SS amplifiers in terms of distortion. Don't get me wrong I am listening to a set of full range drivers rght now and I like them. Aside from true ribbons what dynamic cone driver can match such levels of performance? So what is it that makes some cone drivers sound so good? Regards Mray James.
Yes, we all understand economic theory (unless there are any Marxists present
), but the "manufacturer" in this case is pretty much a one-man operation. Maybe someone here has tried to source 10-15 pounds of Alnico and the same amount of Permendur for a driver project and can tell me otherwise, but the cost of those materials must represent a very large percentage of the retail price. I once tried sourcing pure iron for the pole pieces of a Heil tweeter project and it came out to over $1000 per driver. Needless to say, I didn't follow through.Haruhiko Teramoto slept on the floor of the room he had reserved for the show because he probably couldn't afford to get another room.
John
Edit: Even further off-topic, I recently listened to a speech from Alan Greenspan on the future of the American economy. He stated that he felt that the skilled workers in this country were being paid too much money. No mention of overpaid, nonproductive marketing and other executive types or the armies of lawyers going at it back and forth in a mostly counterproductive fashion. And you thought this guy was the smartest man in the world...
Acoustic guitar makers take relatively inexpensive materials and produce something that costs well over $1000 (sometimes as much as $5000), but unless your name is Martin, Taylor or Larrivee you're not rich. It simply takes too much time to hand build them to produce very many and the market is small and fickle. The rich men mentioned have factories.
I have no experience with feastrex drivers, but in my twenties I wanted to quit my job and become a guitar builder before I realized I'd starve.
I have no experience with feastrex drivers, but in my twenties I wanted to quit my job and become a guitar builder before I realized I'd starve.
To Moray: I'm a big fan of electrostats, particularly the old-school Quad ESL57. Don't know why I haven't warmed to the newer ones, though, from Quad or the boutique vendors.
The "gotcha" is the inability to use direct-heated triode amplifiers or offer a realistic prospect of 110 dB SPL instantaneous peak levels at the listening position. I met Hugh Dean of AKSA amplifier fame, and he is a smart guy that knows how to design good transistor amplifiers - so there's one company I can recommend for transistor amps. Didn't much care for the other transistor amps at the RMAF - if anything, they seem to be going downhill, something I wouldn't have thought possible.
I mentioned I listened to an old Mercury recording of Dorati's version of "Pictures at an Exhibition". I usually advance the volume until tape hiss is at the threshold of audibility, and keep in mind typical concert-hall levels in the front part of the hall. If the tape hiss on that recording was somewhere around 40 dB SPL, the instantaneous peaks would be 70 dB higher, or 110 dB SPL. That's loud, but it sounded about the same as what I remember when I heard the Seattle Symphony play Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" and I was sitting in the 10th row.
I'm not aiming for an average level of 100 dB SPL - I'll leave that to the recording engineers with musicians playing in the control room. But I do want headroom when playing music at an average level of 95 dB SPL, and 15 dB seems like adequate margin for momentary peaks. In terms of overload behaviour, I'm looking for drivers that gradually compress, instead of "crashing" and hitting an overload wall - no violent metal-cone breakup, no whizzer about to fly off the cone, and no ribbons or electrostats about to break or arc-over.
In my own system I am using a direct-heated triode amplifier with (measured) very smooth compression characteristics, running in Class A at 16 watts, Class A2 at 30 watts, and smoothly compressing with instantaneous (well under 1mSec) recovery above that. I want the amplifier, not the loudspeaker, to define the upper dynamic limit of the system. If I was using a conventional feedback-controlled transistor amplifier with their brickwall dynamic limit, I'd need at least 10 dB more power in order to avoid the sound of gross and speaker-destroying hard clipping.
That points in the direction of prosound drivers designed for studio-monitor use, where 100 dB SPL day-in and day-out are the norm. The RAAL ribbon is used in professional systems with 200-watt transistor amplifiers run into continuous hard clipping with no damage, so that is also compatible with the headroom requirements for the midbass and bass drivers.
Within these constraints, I want drivers with good sound quality along with excellent time-domain, energy-storage, and frequency response characteristics. This narrows the pool of drivers substantially, leaving a small group of high-performance "boutique" audiophile and prosound drivers.
As for compression drivers used with modern waveguides (Le Cleac'h, Geddes, et al) vs ribbons, that's an esthetic choice that's up to the builder. In my own personal system, I'll be using the RAAL ribbon in either single or double-height format, depending on the efficiency match with the midbass/widerange driver.
Now I've got to find a 8~12" widerange driver that meets the standard of what I'm looking for - still leaning towards professional drivers of TAD and 18Sound caliber. The 10" Alnico TAD used in the AudioKinesis was nothing short of superb (with measurements to match), but unfortunately is going out of production. If any replacements are on the horizon, I'd like to know.
The "gotcha" is the inability to use direct-heated triode amplifiers or offer a realistic prospect of 110 dB SPL instantaneous peak levels at the listening position. I met Hugh Dean of AKSA amplifier fame, and he is a smart guy that knows how to design good transistor amplifiers - so there's one company I can recommend for transistor amps. Didn't much care for the other transistor amps at the RMAF - if anything, they seem to be going downhill, something I wouldn't have thought possible.
I mentioned I listened to an old Mercury recording of Dorati's version of "Pictures at an Exhibition". I usually advance the volume until tape hiss is at the threshold of audibility, and keep in mind typical concert-hall levels in the front part of the hall. If the tape hiss on that recording was somewhere around 40 dB SPL, the instantaneous peaks would be 70 dB higher, or 110 dB SPL. That's loud, but it sounded about the same as what I remember when I heard the Seattle Symphony play Stravinsky's "Rite of Spring" and I was sitting in the 10th row.
I'm not aiming for an average level of 100 dB SPL - I'll leave that to the recording engineers with musicians playing in the control room. But I do want headroom when playing music at an average level of 95 dB SPL, and 15 dB seems like adequate margin for momentary peaks. In terms of overload behaviour, I'm looking for drivers that gradually compress, instead of "crashing" and hitting an overload wall - no violent metal-cone breakup, no whizzer about to fly off the cone, and no ribbons or electrostats about to break or arc-over.
In my own system I am using a direct-heated triode amplifier with (measured) very smooth compression characteristics, running in Class A at 16 watts, Class A2 at 30 watts, and smoothly compressing with instantaneous (well under 1mSec) recovery above that. I want the amplifier, not the loudspeaker, to define the upper dynamic limit of the system. If I was using a conventional feedback-controlled transistor amplifier with their brickwall dynamic limit, I'd need at least 10 dB more power in order to avoid the sound of gross and speaker-destroying hard clipping.
That points in the direction of prosound drivers designed for studio-monitor use, where 100 dB SPL day-in and day-out are the norm. The RAAL ribbon is used in professional systems with 200-watt transistor amplifiers run into continuous hard clipping with no damage, so that is also compatible with the headroom requirements for the midbass and bass drivers.
Within these constraints, I want drivers with good sound quality along with excellent time-domain, energy-storage, and frequency response characteristics. This narrows the pool of drivers substantially, leaving a small group of high-performance "boutique" audiophile and prosound drivers.
As for compression drivers used with modern waveguides (Le Cleac'h, Geddes, et al) vs ribbons, that's an esthetic choice that's up to the builder. In my own personal system, I'll be using the RAAL ribbon in either single or double-height format, depending on the efficiency match with the midbass/widerange driver.
Now I've got to find a 8~12" widerange driver that meets the standard of what I'm looking for - still leaning towards professional drivers of TAD and 18Sound caliber. The 10" Alnico TAD used in the AudioKinesis was nothing short of superb (with measurements to match), but unfortunately is going out of production. If any replacements are on the horizon, I'd like to know.
Re. RAAL 140-15D group buy
I have never participated in a group buy, but if it is possible to arrange a purchase of the RAAL 140-15D ribbons at the bulk rate I would definitely be in for a pair.
I have been a long time lurker in all things audio and DIY in particular, almost never posting! This thread has been wonderful to follow in detail as it mirrors my evolution in DIY speaker thinking (i.e. pro drivers, high efficiency, etc.). I have learned a lot. I am also pleased to see mention of the TAD 1102 as it has long been very attractive to me as the main driver in a system I would love to build. I am intrigued by Lynn's mention of measurements of this driver and wonder if he has additional details for us (I suspect Duke at Audiokinesis has a great database) as I have never seen or heard described any measurements of this driver.
Thank you,
Bill
I have never participated in a group buy, but if it is possible to arrange a purchase of the RAAL 140-15D ribbons at the bulk rate I would definitely be in for a pair.
I have been a long time lurker in all things audio and DIY in particular, almost never posting! This thread has been wonderful to follow in detail as it mirrors my evolution in DIY speaker thinking (i.e. pro drivers, high efficiency, etc.). I have learned a lot. I am also pleased to see mention of the TAD 1102 as it has long been very attractive to me as the main driver in a system I would love to build. I am intrigued by Lynn's mention of measurements of this driver and wonder if he has additional details for us (I suspect Duke at Audiokinesis has a great database) as I have never seen or heard described any measurements of this driver.
Thank you,
Bill
jlsem said:
Mr. Bose has already done a good job convincing people that plastic cones sound good. Now THAT'S a remarkable marketing achievement.
John
Same goes to IPod and Nike shoes and Microsoft Windows. It is all about convincing suckers to pay big money for garbages. In short, these corporations are good at lying and bullying, and not making good products. What is even more ridiculous is that the suckers think that they are so special because they purchased garbages, probably by maxing out their credit cards and taking out second mortgages.
Lynn,
I probably am crazy and should spend the money on therapy instead. I seriously am thinking of ordering a pair of Feastrex D5nf, as I want to buy my stuffs now instead of later, and the price will increase for such drivers beginning 11/1.
As they are only 120mm (4.8") with 95db sensitivity and 16 ohm impedance, do they flunk your 100db requirement?
Raal
If you are interested in the group buy, please post in that thread. Please do not PM me. Please do not post in Lynn's thread either.
I don't know what happened. There was no action for 6 weeks and now everyone wants some with concurrent threads running in Europe.
Thanks, and I don't mean to threadjack Lynn,
C
If you are interested in the group buy, please post in that thread. Please do not PM me. Please do not post in Lynn's thread either.
I don't know what happened. There was no action for 6 weeks and now everyone wants some with concurrent threads running in Europe.
Thanks, and I don't mean to threadjack Lynn,
C
agent.5 said:
You must have a different psychology than I do - I'd never spend US$5000 on a pair of drivers that I'd never heard before, no matter what anyone said about them. Airfare is a lot cheaper than that - I'd fly somewhere and listen to them first, take a little vacation, and think it over.
Any full-range driver has serious compromises that are just inherent to the full-range concept. Even the Feastrex whizzer can be defeated by high-level symphonic music - I heard it for myself. It happened several dB higher than the equivalent Lowther, but it does give up, although in a fairly graceful manner for a whizzer.
If you're a complete jazz nut, OK, I see the appeal. It does the instrumental textures thing really, really well, and does have phenomenal resolution. But I almost never listen to jazz - I just don't connect to it on an emotional level, and I'm not going to force myself to listen to something because I "should" appreciate it.
The Feastrex is more of a tossup for full-on symphonic, choral, gospel choir, or dense heavily-produced rock music. This is the home territory of efficient multiway systems, with or without horns. Like all full-rangers, it is pristine until it hits the "heavy weather" of dense, complex music - and then resolution falls off and colorations become more severe. The Feastrex just raises the bar higher, and fails more gracefully, than other full-rangers.
Before plunking down that sort of coin (just think of the price in Troy ounces of gold), listen for yourself with the kind of music that is emotionally significant to you. Do not bring a Stereophile checklist of do's and don't for loudspeakers - just see if you connect on an emotional level with what you're hearing.
If you're reading between the lines, I'm not planning on any kind of full-ranger for myself - I'm looking at prosound monitor-grade drivers and reasonably skillful crossover design to integrate it with the RAAL ribbon tweeter. Leading candidates are TAD and the 18sound 8NMB420, 10NDA620, and 12NDA520 models. These are light-cone, high BL-product drivers with sophisticated magnetic systems and very efficient voice-coil cooling systems.