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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 21st June 2007, 06:12 AM   #1181
agent.5 is offline agent.5  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBK
[B]

I am a bit confused here. This is pretty much the size of just a two-car garage.

For people in San Francisco, and New York City, that is the size of the entire condo.
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Old 21st June 2007, 11:17 AM   #1182
Teh is offline Teh  United States
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My reference was not to the 20' x 16' room. You're right this is not considered large by any means. Our actual living room is 22 x 16.

My reference was to a 20' x 26' family room that we built. My point was that even with a 520 square foot room most people wouldn't care for the placements that have been suggested.

You will not find many 520 sq foot living rooms (or any other room in the house for that matter) around the country. That was the room I was referring to.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:04 PM   #1183
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by MBK


Correct, the listening position also has to be a minimum of 5 or 6 ft off the back wall. So that now requires a minimum room size of 20 ft wide and 15-16 ft deep, with speakers along the long wall. I completely forgot about the back wall when I recalculated these values (maybe because my own listening position also is in the middle of the room).

A more directional speaker won't help with the back wall issue though, or would it?

I also thought about your claim to Stage Width enhancement from early reflections off of the side walls. I striongly disagree with this. The imageing of the recording is in the recording and no room reflections can "enhance" what is there or not there. Side wall reflections after 10-15 ms. add to spatiousness, but they can never enhance imaging. What you are talking about appears to be the false creation of SW when one is not present in the original recording. I am not a fan of putting the speakers along the long wall.

Directional speakers can't help with the back wall which is why it needs to be as far back as possible. The directivity helps immensly with the side wall problem however.

I still don't see the wide directivity of a ribben being a positive thing.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:14 PM   #1184
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Teh
My reference was not to the 20' x 16' room. You're right this is not considered large by any means. Our actual living room is 22 x 16.

My reference was to a 20' x 26' family room that we built. My point was that even with a 520 square foot room most people wouldn't care for the placements that have been suggested.

You will not find many 520 sq foot living rooms (or any other room in the house for that matter) around the country. That was the room I was referring to.
I think that it is your point of view that is unreasonable.

I have always said that a multi-purpose room is bad for all of the purposes. At some point a commitemnt to audio must be such that it allows for a dedicated AV room, such as I have and such as many many people that I know have. I idea that I can have a living room that pleases the wife which is also a listening room that pleases me is not viable.

That said, it does not take that much space. My room is 14 x 20, a very typical space, and it is in the basement - my wife could care less. It is also the home theater, which everyone loves - it has two functions, movies and audio, and excels at both. This whole approach is quite practical, reasonable and doable (see my book on the subject).

You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.

And yes, I have a wife and two kids, live in a typical midwestern home, and everything works out just fine.

Living in an apartment in SF or NY? Well forget about ever really enjoying audio or home theater. Its not going to happen. Sorry - I don't make the rules.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:20 PM   #1185
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Default Re: Room diffusion

Quote:
Originally posted by kevinh

Earl is right the more diffuse the reflected soundfield the better.

IMO RPG is the leader in the acoustic design of listening spaces using architectural components. Not a real high WAF though. Their components can do a great job optimizing a rooms behavior.

http://www.rpginc.com/research/index.htm

I don't have anything against RPG, but the best room acoustics that I have obtained don't use any of their products. Its easy to build the right things into the room. Read my book on home theater and you will see that expensive "sound fixes" are simply not necessary. I have never used any in any of the dozen or so rooms that I have built.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:27 PM   #1186
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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I'm with Teh on this one. 20x16 is much larger than my room (13x18) and my room is big for a typical greater NYC dwelling. Here the sqft cost is probably closer to $400/sqft. Fortunately I have two large openings into other rooms which expands the depth of my room and places me further from the back wall. This isn't the norm in this area.

I consider 20x16 in the medium range. Unless you are in the sticks or far from a major metropolis area, chance are you don't have a room as large as 20x26 unless it your house costs over $3m.

I am not trying to argue semantics on what determines a large room, but I've been to Dr. Geddes home and seen the size of his rooms. They are much larger than typical in my metropolitan area. His home in this area would be a few million easy.

But more importantly, unless you have a dedicated room, the room layout is very unpractical.
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Old 21st June 2007, 01:38 PM   #1187
JoshK is offline JoshK  Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.
I don't think that is fair. Most folks I know who are fanatic about audio don't have a dedicated room. Is simply is unaffordable in a major metropolis area. I think I recall that the great NYC area makes up 10% of the population of the US and that does not including the bay area, LA, Boston, Chicago, etc. So to write off those living in these areas is writing off a large portion of your potential client base, IMHO.
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Old 21st June 2007, 02:03 PM   #1188
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK


I don't think that is fair. Most folks I know who are fanatic about audio don't have a dedicated room. Is simply is unaffordable in a major metropolis area. I think I recall that the great NYC area makes up 10% of the population of the US and that does not including the bay area, LA, Boston, Chicago, etc. So to write off those living in these areas is writing off a large portion of your potential client base, IMHO.

Perhaps it is a little unfair, but it is a reality. A really good sound setup takes space - thats all there is to it. If you don't have that space then there is not much that you can do about it. But I see no reason NOT to discuss optimal spaces especially since such spaces are readily available to a very large population of people. I don't buy my sound system at Best Buy, and my speakers will never sell there, so clearly I am not going after the mass market. I couldn't compete there if I wanted to.

I am often asked what someone in a small space can do. Honestly, the situation will always be a compromise, and I am not the person to decide those compromises for someone else. However, no matter what the situation, I believe that the more directional the sound system the better and the more compromised the situation the more likley this is to be true. Beyond that there are no "golden rules" for the highly compromised sound situation.

I have identical speakers in my dedicated Home Theater and in my "typical living room". The difference is substantial and the dedicated space is by far the better. The sound system simply cannot make up for the space, but the space can accentuate the sound system. The speakers in the living room are seldon used for anything more than background music. No serious listening is ever done there. This, I feel, is the big issue. When I see sound systems wedged into a family room, they are virtually never used for anything more than background music.

I am sure that there are exceptions, but this is what I have seen as the general rule.
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Old 21st June 2007, 02:08 PM   #1189
MJK is offline MJK  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by gedlee
You have to decide what the priorities are. If you can't dedicate a room to your audio passion, then you are simply not that passionate.
Sorry Earl, I can't resist this one.

Passionate about what? Audio equipment? Acoustic performance? Enjoying listening to music?

Personally, the last two places I have lived meet your requirements of room size, dedicated audio room, and probably audio equipment. But going back before that time, even to when I was a kid listening to the newly released early Beatles records, I think I always enjoyed listening to music even in substandard rooms with substandard equipment. As my financial situation has evolved the room and the equipment has evolved dramatically but the enjoyment of music has remained a constant. The equipment and room are a luxury, the music is what is important and without the music the room and equipment are not of interest. I have no interest in home theater.
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Old 21st June 2007, 02:12 PM   #1190
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by JoshK

I am not trying to argue semantics on what determines a large room, but I've been to Dr. Geddes home and seen the size of his rooms. They are much larger than typical in my metropolitan area. His home in this area would be a few million easy.

I guess point of view is everything. My home here is worth about $450,000, only slightly above the midpoint of home values for the metropolitan area, and not that high even by national standards. Actually low for my part of the woods. I never considered it large, I have many friends in much larger.

Its all a matter of choices, where we live, how big our house is, if we have a dedicated litening room. I strongly objected to the post claiming that this whole discussion of room layout was achedemic, and that no one in their right mind would ever do this. THAT WAS UNREASONABLE.
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