Well actually you need boots with NASCAR logo's on 'em to be considered a local - otherwise you'll be spotted as being an "outsider". If you wear a cowboy had and clothing with sequins you will be assessed as either being an "old timer" that is past their prime our and over enthusiastic foreign tourist that is look'n for Elvis - and we all know that he is actually over in Memphis grill'n up some peanut butter and banana sandwiches at a diner just outside of town. 
You can mask that my eating massive amounts of deep fried foods and BBQ ribs - oh yeah - plus the local favorite - deep fried okra. Well - toss in some grits while your at it.
Ok - I'll stop screwing around and get back on topic - what the heck are you gonna use for tweet's? If you looked at the Zaph Audio site you will see some fairly affordable domes he tested. If I remember right there were a couple of Daytons and some Pioneer's that looked pretty good.
I'm still a fan of AMT's - but not all of them are created equal either. The B&G's have some good reviews from a number of sources and are in the affordable range. The ESS AMT1's I can vouch for but they are a little rich for some peoples blood. Of course there is the school of thought that doesn't care for AMT's YMMV. From reading your post I think you will find them to be a good choice.
If you want the real thing, but brought up to modern tech standards you need to contact Dale Harder at dale at hhr-lasers dot com Dale makes Ohm F's, new, from the original cone patterns, but he uses a better motor, better voice coil and stronger suspension so the voice coil doesn't droop out of the gap. These are expensive speakers.
As for something that sounds as good, not likely. You can get a nude full range, to open baffle upper mid, to cardioid open baffle bass to have very similar in room character, with even greater definition and depiction of space, for about the same money, spent on drivers and cabinetry. You can get the pano woofer / tweeter to sound very good, with some drawbacks and without the ease and giganticness of space the F's provide and you can get the Walsh 2 speakers to do just about as good, if you EnABL or Mamboni the woofer/mid range driver. Personalty I would start with the Walsh 2's, if acceptable, move on to the Mamboni build with a superior tweeter and maintain a slight drool over the F's
No free lunch. Look here for pics of Dale's work Picasa Web Albums - Bud - New Walsh dri...
Bud
As for something that sounds as good, not likely. You can get a nude full range, to open baffle upper mid, to cardioid open baffle bass to have very similar in room character, with even greater definition and depiction of space, for about the same money, spent on drivers and cabinetry. You can get the pano woofer / tweeter to sound very good, with some drawbacks and without the ease and giganticness of space the F's provide and you can get the Walsh 2 speakers to do just about as good, if you EnABL or Mamboni the woofer/mid range driver. Personalty I would start with the Walsh 2's, if acceptable, move on to the Mamboni build with a superior tweeter and maintain a slight drool over the F's
No free lunch. Look here for pics of Dale's work Picasa Web Albums - Bud - New Walsh dri...
Bud
Hi Bud - I just got home from taking wife and son and his GF out to the local steak house. I had the Salmon (not at all up to Seattle, SF, or Boston standards) steamed baby carrots, and wild rice - not a piece of deep fried anything in sight (for me). Heck - now days I stay away from any nasty type fats, refined carbohydrates, or sugars!!! Tomorrow is Susan's (age classified) birthday and at her insistence I will suffer a small piece of her birthday carrot cake. Heck - just staying away from the carb's and breads I've dropped off 20 lbs. in the last couple of months!!! When the local's ask my wife what the hell is wrong with me she just tells 'em that she kidnapped me out of California and they all nod there heads and say "Ahhhhh - you poor thing you. Now we understand!" The real unspoken secret is that I was raised as a Texas boy by a Texas mother - and Texans pretty much do whatever the hell we like.
I hear ya, changed to an Omega 3 fats diet about 4 years ago (olive oil, walnuts, garlic, fish, ya know, bitter stuff) and have been on Beta Kerotene (turns into A when needed), C and E for about 30 years, to absorb the "ash" from being an oxy / carbon compound dependent life form.
The only obvious diff is that upon quitting ordinary Texas style fats and taking up with those Mediterranean sorts, much of my baldness has been repopulated. Mebe that's how those Istalions keep their hair until it no longer matters?
I will admit that I still have a pretty capable respiratory system for being an old thing and since it was a sports medicine doctor that told me to try those particular three vitamins out, in combination and fairly large amounts, I figured it couldn't kill me any quicker than all of the rest of life was going to, so, why not?
Bud
The only obvious diff is that upon quitting ordinary Texas style fats and taking up with those Mediterranean sorts, much of my baldness has been repopulated. Mebe that's how those Istalions keep their hair until it no longer matters?
I will admit that I still have a pretty capable respiratory system for being an old thing and since it was a sports medicine doctor that told me to try those particular three vitamins out, in combination and fairly large amounts, I figured it couldn't kill me any quicker than all of the rest of life was going to, so, why not?
Bud
Flaxseed oil! I've been to Italy a few times and you should see what those gals can do with a bottle of olive oil!!! Mama-Mia!!!! Now how do we tie all of this in to making some Walsh clones??? Hmmmmm maybe we can soften up the cone surround with some olive oil? Omega 3 EnABL patterns? Listening to a bit of Italian opera could have some merit!!
Flaxseed and olive oil and other stuff indeed! Been looking around on Craigs list for Ohms. Of all names to name a speaker: Ohm. You ever searched for "Ohm Speaker"? Most speakers have several ohms it turns out. Spoke with John, the president of Ohm twice today about refurbishing, etc. And also about these Ohms I have. Each of them has some sort of protective circuit - an SBA - Sub bass activator. And he said maybe it is burnt out. Not sure what it is, but my guess is that it is a resettable breaker across a resistor and it forgot to reset. Don't know. Need to open the speakers to take a look. He said the difference in sound with the SBA working or not is subtle. He also said I should place the speakers 2" from a wall. They are not positioned that way now, which could explain the lack of bass he said.
There are a lot of speakers... raw speakers on Craigs List. I was thinking that once I get the Walsh-work-alike cabinets built, I could buy a couple or 4 speakers there to experiment with. With a single order crossover, it would seem like nothing is real critical. Slap some magic triangles on them and I'm good to go.
There are a lot of speakers... raw speakers on Craigs List. I was thinking that once I get the Walsh-work-alike cabinets built, I could buy a couple or 4 speakers there to experiment with. With a single order crossover, it would seem like nothing is real critical. Slap some magic triangles on them and I'm good to go.
Yes Thomas. Probably difficult to find a large woofer that goes that high. And would probably not find that particular speaker used somewhere. Perhaps you buy those new, and then mess around with the tweeters like you did(?) When shopping for a woofer, do you suppose there are many others that would fill that bill?
Also wondering if there is such thing as finding a woofer with a deeper cone so as to more closely have the cone emulate the Ohm F. Is it important to attempt to keep the cone opening at as small of an angle as possible to increase the sound radiation to the side?
Also wondering if there is such thing as finding a woofer with a deeper cone so as to more closely have the cone emulate the Ohm F. Is it important to attempt to keep the cone opening at as small of an angle as possible to increase the sound radiation to the side?
I have looked around for alternative drivers until I was blue in the face. I even checked out 6.5 and 8 inch drivers but the Pioneer still came out best overall. I wish it was more efficient in order to match my AMT1's better - but those are the cards that have been dealt out so those are the ones I played. Due to their affordable cost the Pioneers combined with mamboni's triangles are a good place to start - add the tweeter of your personal choice - you will have a pretty nice speaker. Is it a Walsh F? Depends on what components you wind up using - but it can be a very nice speaker for not a lot of $$. I couldn't find a speaker with a deeper cone - but I have considered flipping the cone over or making my own. I'm pretty happy as is but I have been looking into other projects including OB. I'm pleased enough with these that I'm not in any big hurry to play around while the weather is still freaking cold!!!! Brrrrrrrrr !
42* in Kansas today Thomas. Not too bad. Good to be above freezing. Yes, I was thinking of the Walsh Ohm F, with the 15"(?) high inverted cone. I did see some stuff on this board about building your own cones. I think they cut the bracing on the speakers and stretch and brace the magnet away from the base frame. I'm still trying to wrap my imagination around the fact that DIY speakers can sound as good as what you want them to sound.
I guess you are saying that your tweeter is a little too bright for the Pioneer. I just bought two little microphones that are real flat. They got here yesterday. My plan is to use that TrueRTA program to graph the response of the speakers I have. I hadn't used a graphing type program before. So I am interested in seeing how it works and what can be learned. I am guessing that in your case, the response curve would show the Pioneer to be putting out a lower SPL than your tweeter? Is it that simple? Would you, or do you, see an increase in output when you get up around 5 or 6K?
Another thing I'm not sure about is how you compare the phasing between the two speakers that are connected together "in phase" to begin with. Like how would you see that indeed there is phase shift as you go through the crossover from one speaker to another. Maybe the program runs a saw tooth through the speaker and shows you the shift through the curve? Anyway, that is what I would like to play with.
I guess you are saying that your tweeter is a little too bright for the Pioneer. I just bought two little microphones that are real flat. They got here yesterday. My plan is to use that TrueRTA program to graph the response of the speakers I have. I hadn't used a graphing type program before. So I am interested in seeing how it works and what can be learned. I am guessing that in your case, the response curve would show the Pioneer to be putting out a lower SPL than your tweeter? Is it that simple? Would you, or do you, see an increase in output when you get up around 5 or 6K?
Another thing I'm not sure about is how you compare the phasing between the two speakers that are connected together "in phase" to begin with. Like how would you see that indeed there is phase shift as you go through the crossover from one speaker to another. Maybe the program runs a saw tooth through the speaker and shows you the shift through the curve? Anyway, that is what I would like to play with.
I don't have any tools to test with so I will find your testing very interesting.
Here is some theory and a DIY method that doesn't involve a lot of $$$.
Testing for a speaker being out of phase isn't very difficult - but testing for the amount of phase difference or time alignment requires quite a setup and is usually done in an environment where reflections can be managed or eliminated (out of doors or in an anechoic chamber).
Phase, Time and Distortion in Loudspeakers
A Simple Phase Tester
Here is some theory and a DIY method that doesn't involve a lot of $$$.
Testing for a speaker being out of phase isn't very difficult - but testing for the amount of phase difference or time alignment requires quite a setup and is usually done in an environment where reflections can be managed or eliminated (out of doors or in an anechoic chamber).
Phase, Time and Distortion in Loudspeakers
A Simple Phase Tester
Hey Norman - are you still looking for a decent tweeter for your Walsh project? Check out what Zaph has to say about the B&G Neo3 and Vifa D26NC55 Zaph|Audio
Perhaps this information will help a bit
Perhaps this information will help a bit
Hi Thomas!
Thanks for the link. I just read it. Interesting. seems the Neo3 PDR did well.
I read most of the thread on the Thor speaker kit. Of course if you read the main thread of 65 pages and then the other related threads, it could take a week or so. I wish I knew which way to go: Walsh work alike or the the modified Thor.
I've also been looking online at the various used Walsh 4 speakers. They go from $400 up. Currently, there is a pair on eBay that someone bid $1800 for. That is just way too much for a pair of old Walsh 4's.
So, anyway, I'm still reading as much as I have time for. Another couple of guys I know are looking as well. I've attempted to tell them how nice the Walsh speakers sound. But it seems 99% of the speakers sold are direct radiating speakers. Also, very few omni's are sold in stores. So it is difficult to compare their sound. What would you tell people who are trying to determine whether to buy an omni site unseen/unheard vs. a direct radiating speaker? I'm still thinking omni, but I am only about 80% sure.
I also had a thought of buying a pair of tweeters used in the Thor. That way they could be used in the Omni as well (maybe). It is a SEAS "T25CF002, “MILLENNIUM”, a 25mm soft dome tweeter with a Neodymium based magnet system".
What do think about all of that Thomas?
Thanks for the link. I just read it. Interesting. seems the Neo3 PDR did well.
I read most of the thread on the Thor speaker kit. Of course if you read the main thread of 65 pages and then the other related threads, it could take a week or so. I wish I knew which way to go: Walsh work alike or the the modified Thor.
I've also been looking online at the various used Walsh 4 speakers. They go from $400 up. Currently, there is a pair on eBay that someone bid $1800 for. That is just way too much for a pair of old Walsh 4's.
So, anyway, I'm still reading as much as I have time for. Another couple of guys I know are looking as well. I've attempted to tell them how nice the Walsh speakers sound. But it seems 99% of the speakers sold are direct radiating speakers. Also, very few omni's are sold in stores. So it is difficult to compare their sound. What would you tell people who are trying to determine whether to buy an omni site unseen/unheard vs. a direct radiating speaker? I'm still thinking omni, but I am only about 80% sure.
I also had a thought of buying a pair of tweeters used in the Thor. That way they could be used in the Omni as well (maybe). It is a SEAS "T25CF002, “MILLENNIUM”, a 25mm soft dome tweeter with a Neodymium based magnet system".
What do think about all of that Thomas?
jupiter speaker a version of an Omni designed loudspeaker
Omni vs. Direct radiating and how to describe the difference. That is difficult to do without having something to compare to or a place to listen to the different speakers at. If memory serves (and at my age I have been accused of having a delay line for a memory) you stated earlier that you reside in Kansas – but didn’t mention exactly where. The idea here being that you might be able to drive to one of the DIY shows and listen to some systems and talk with other DIYers. The problem with that is that the closest show I can think of is the big one in Dayton Ohio usually held in the spring. Check out the Parts Express Tech Talk area to see if you can find something.
Linkwitz has some information and theory about stereo reproduction on his website. Of course he is not alone in having information about speakers and sound reproduction. Darn near everyone that makes or designs speakers has loads of information – the question becomes who do you believe? When it comes to omni speaker design I haven’t found a site with better information than his – start there.
Optimized stereophonic reproduction Room optimized stereophonic sound reproduction.
Analogies or comparing omni to direct sound have been attempted by many – but analogies more often than not fall short of experiencing the real thing. My shot at it would be to strike something such as a triangle (as used in music) or small bell – something metal that has a “ring” to it. Perhaps something that has a nice sustained musical note to it would suffice such as a chord or note on an acoustic guitar. Do this while standing in your listening space – while you are a couple of feet away from the walls and pay attention to the note or cord. Listen to the tone produced directly from the instrument as well as the echo and decay from the walls, ceiling, surrounding objects etc. Now from the same location surround the object on five sides by a well deadened box and strike the same note with the same intensity. The sound directly radiated will still be heard by the listener located in front of the box but the echo’s and reverberations from the walls etc. will be (should be) greatly deadened. This directivity of the reproduced audio might be desirable in some listening situations such as a studio. Another benefit of this directivity is that higher sound levels can be achieved for a given amount of power input. This greater sensitivity is of importance with lower powered amplifiers – say 2 to 10 watts. So that’s a bit of a take on directionality of speakers. The quality of the sound reproduced is another subject and gets you into the realm of driver quality and sensitivity, cross-over design, using multiple amplifiers etc.
Is this the Thor speaker kit you are referring to? Thor Kit Pair - Black Oak from Madisound
It is a highly regarded speaker by many – but it ain’t omni – and it cost a bunch more $$$ than the Walsh 5 remakes discussed in this thread. It does us a nice dome tweeter – but then my personal preference still is the AMT’s – but that’s just me YMMV.
This tweeter? SEAS Excel T25CF-002 (E0011) Millennium Tweeter from Madisound at $225 each?
For the $$$$ I would consider SEAS Prestige 27TDF (H1211) Textile Dome from Madisound
@$30 each. Compare the graphs for both as well as the Zaph audio site on the tweeter mishmash test.
I hope that you find this to be of some help in making your decisions.
Omni vs. Direct radiating and how to describe the difference. That is difficult to do without having something to compare to or a place to listen to the different speakers at. If memory serves (and at my age I have been accused of having a delay line for a memory) you stated earlier that you reside in Kansas – but didn’t mention exactly where. The idea here being that you might be able to drive to one of the DIY shows and listen to some systems and talk with other DIYers. The problem with that is that the closest show I can think of is the big one in Dayton Ohio usually held in the spring. Check out the Parts Express Tech Talk area to see if you can find something.
Linkwitz has some information and theory about stereo reproduction on his website. Of course he is not alone in having information about speakers and sound reproduction. Darn near everyone that makes or designs speakers has loads of information – the question becomes who do you believe? When it comes to omni speaker design I haven’t found a site with better information than his – start there.
Optimized stereophonic reproduction Room optimized stereophonic sound reproduction.
Analogies or comparing omni to direct sound have been attempted by many – but analogies more often than not fall short of experiencing the real thing. My shot at it would be to strike something such as a triangle (as used in music) or small bell – something metal that has a “ring” to it. Perhaps something that has a nice sustained musical note to it would suffice such as a chord or note on an acoustic guitar. Do this while standing in your listening space – while you are a couple of feet away from the walls and pay attention to the note or cord. Listen to the tone produced directly from the instrument as well as the echo and decay from the walls, ceiling, surrounding objects etc. Now from the same location surround the object on five sides by a well deadened box and strike the same note with the same intensity. The sound directly radiated will still be heard by the listener located in front of the box but the echo’s and reverberations from the walls etc. will be (should be) greatly deadened. This directivity of the reproduced audio might be desirable in some listening situations such as a studio. Another benefit of this directivity is that higher sound levels can be achieved for a given amount of power input. This greater sensitivity is of importance with lower powered amplifiers – say 2 to 10 watts. So that’s a bit of a take on directionality of speakers. The quality of the sound reproduced is another subject and gets you into the realm of driver quality and sensitivity, cross-over design, using multiple amplifiers etc.
Is this the Thor speaker kit you are referring to? Thor Kit Pair - Black Oak from Madisound
It is a highly regarded speaker by many – but it ain’t omni – and it cost a bunch more $$$ than the Walsh 5 remakes discussed in this thread. It does us a nice dome tweeter – but then my personal preference still is the AMT’s – but that’s just me YMMV.
This tweeter? SEAS Excel T25CF-002 (E0011) Millennium Tweeter from Madisound at $225 each?
For the $$$$ I would consider SEAS Prestige 27TDF (H1211) Textile Dome from Madisound
@$30 each. Compare the graphs for both as well as the Zaph audio site on the tweeter mishmash test.
I hope that you find this to be of some help in making your decisions.
Hello,
I am thinking about building a system with the great Heil and the 12" Pioneer woofer and wondering if anyone has built a system like this.
Would the 12" Pioneer be good up to at least 5K ?
Should the felt be applied the same as the 10" driver proportional to the larger size ?
Is 5k at 6db to low for the Heil,if not damaging the driver,sounding rough ?
Thanks to everyone for an excellent thread and any advise given.
I am thinking about building a system with the great Heil and the 12" Pioneer woofer and wondering if anyone has built a system like this.
Would the 12" Pioneer be good up to at least 5K ?
Should the felt be applied the same as the 10" driver proportional to the larger size ?
Is 5k at 6db to low for the Heil,if not damaging the driver,sounding rough ?
Thanks to everyone for an excellent thread and any advise given.
It would be good at screaming
For an efficient budget driver it might be worth looking at Eminence 8"
You wont know how xo works until you have drivers up and running/playing
Ok so I'm a new member, Hello everyone.
I am also a record collector w/35K records andhave used probably 30 different pairs of speakers in the past 35 years of listening to music.
I am still under the opinion that the OHM F speakers were one of the finest if not the finest speakers I have ever heard and owned. I now own 2 sets of them. A couple of things that may affect certain peoples experiences with them. First the rubber under the woofer by now is usually in poor condition, most audio stores who claim to be able to refoam these speakers install the foam incorrectly, most sales of these speakers on ebay that have been refoamed, have been refoamed incorrectly....ask me how I found that out several times. So it is likely unless you come across a mint set of 35 year old Ohm F speakers the sound is not representative of what they can do.
In one of my other bright ideas, I bought a set of new Ohm speakers from Ohm in Brooklyn. (I am in NY). This was at the period of frustration I was having finding another set of 'good' OHM F's. After much assurance from Ohm that my new drivers (Ohm 3000's) would sound better than new OHM F's would have back in the day, and that they would even fit in the existing Ohm F cabinet....I took the plunge.
Not only was I initally disappionted, but even after much break-in use. I am convinced there is no way the current line up of Ohm drivers come even close to the ones made 30 years ago. I am also in not alone in this opinion. And even Ohm themselves admit this is their biggest problem selling new speakers to diehard fans even after 30 something years!! So are all the people who swear by the original line of Ohm F speakers wrong?? Are they all tone-deaf?? Are none of them capable of hearing a competent speaker and knowing the difference between it and a lousy speaker??
I very highly doubt it.
People who say they are just speakers that you are listening to from behind, and all other foolish statements about the quality of the cones, materials, foam, cabinets, the sound is just out of phase thats all.....etc etc. blah blah blah....have obviously never heard a good pair, and they certainly never heard them as new, when they were the rage of all the high end audio stores many years ago.
The german-physiks speakers look very tempting as replacements...but the prices are
at 30-35K which is a bit much.
I am also a record collector w/35K records andhave used probably 30 different pairs of speakers in the past 35 years of listening to music.
I am still under the opinion that the OHM F speakers were one of the finest if not the finest speakers I have ever heard and owned. I now own 2 sets of them. A couple of things that may affect certain peoples experiences with them. First the rubber under the woofer by now is usually in poor condition, most audio stores who claim to be able to refoam these speakers install the foam incorrectly, most sales of these speakers on ebay that have been refoamed, have been refoamed incorrectly....ask me how I found that out several times. So it is likely unless you come across a mint set of 35 year old Ohm F speakers the sound is not representative of what they can do.
In one of my other bright ideas, I bought a set of new Ohm speakers from Ohm in Brooklyn. (I am in NY). This was at the period of frustration I was having finding another set of 'good' OHM F's. After much assurance from Ohm that my new drivers (Ohm 3000's) would sound better than new OHM F's would have back in the day, and that they would even fit in the existing Ohm F cabinet....I took the plunge.
Not only was I initally disappionted, but even after much break-in use. I am convinced there is no way the current line up of Ohm drivers come even close to the ones made 30 years ago. I am also in not alone in this opinion. And even Ohm themselves admit this is their biggest problem selling new speakers to diehard fans even after 30 something years!! So are all the people who swear by the original line of Ohm F speakers wrong?? Are they all tone-deaf?? Are none of them capable of hearing a competent speaker and knowing the difference between it and a lousy speaker??
I very highly doubt it.
People who say they are just speakers that you are listening to from behind, and all other foolish statements about the quality of the cones, materials, foam, cabinets, the sound is just out of phase thats all.....etc etc. blah blah blah....have obviously never heard a good pair, and they certainly never heard them as new, when they were the rage of all the high end audio stores many years ago.
The german-physiks speakers look very tempting as replacements...but the prices are
at 30-35K which is a bit much.
Last edited: