Hi Bob,
In post #17 of "Why are the diaphragms of pro woofers always made of paper?" thread baseballbat points out study performed on metal cones. Very interesting study and worth some thought. I found that thread by reading Lynn Olsen's "Beyond the Ariel" thread and thoughts.
Being as you are a designer I know that you are aware that all materials used for speaker cone construction present their own particular set of "characteristics" such as resonance of the material used as well as the cone configuration, surround material and coupling method, etc. At the mid to high frequencies metals start to ring - and different metals will present a different tone at the same frequency - say a brass bell compared to bronze or copper. The same thing happens with the wood used in violins - and there such things as the varnish and shellac are used as a surface treatment to produce the "color" ("colour" for you chaps) of the instrument. Mamboni's triangles very much help to control this ringing in a controllable manner but they can only go so far - a bell will still sound like a bell - but it will be a controlled bell - depending on the number of Mamboni triangles applied - their size, location and material considerations etc. The point is that we have something to work with here - and that I believe can be developed to a higher level. Lynn Olsen has some thoughts about "Golden Ratio" triangles that need to be looked into and I'm thinking that as long as I'm playing around with Phi that the dimensions of the cone dimensions should follow the ratios of a Golden Triangle - and be used as a true "Walsh" driver. Treating the cone with BudP's EnABL pattern treatment to polish things off with and that should be one heck of a speaker!
Chinese has a great thread about his 14 inch full range speaker where he makes his own paper cones and I'm wondering what his methods combined with a natural long fiber material such a hemp would produce when combined with the stuff mentioned above.
Add a plasma tweeter and we are off to the races!! Hmmm - might as well toss in an Oskar Heil (back at cha - heh-heh) AMT in there somewhere just for SnG's!
I did a bunch of PWM stuff for controlling lighting dimmers used for stage lighting - and we were controlling lamps that had 2 KW bulbs in them. We used a micro processor to control things with (Mostek 6502 - back in the 70's) and triac's to control the AC. Just delayed the gating signal to the triac as to when it would pass current during the cycle - simple and works well - for AC tho.
What you need to come up with is a device (other than a dam) that will convert snow into a power source!! Ha-ha
I would like to work on a design that will convert all of the BS produced by politicians, news reporters, and TV ads into energy! Might need to break a couple of laws of physics tho - but there are some laws that just need changing!!
In post #17 of "Why are the diaphragms of pro woofers always made of paper?" thread baseballbat points out study performed on metal cones. Very interesting study and worth some thought. I found that thread by reading Lynn Olsen's "Beyond the Ariel" thread and thoughts.
Being as you are a designer I know that you are aware that all materials used for speaker cone construction present their own particular set of "characteristics" such as resonance of the material used as well as the cone configuration, surround material and coupling method, etc. At the mid to high frequencies metals start to ring - and different metals will present a different tone at the same frequency - say a brass bell compared to bronze or copper. The same thing happens with the wood used in violins - and there such things as the varnish and shellac are used as a surface treatment to produce the "color" ("colour" for you chaps) of the instrument. Mamboni's triangles very much help to control this ringing in a controllable manner but they can only go so far - a bell will still sound like a bell - but it will be a controlled bell - depending on the number of Mamboni triangles applied - their size, location and material considerations etc. The point is that we have something to work with here - and that I believe can be developed to a higher level. Lynn Olsen has some thoughts about "Golden Ratio" triangles that need to be looked into and I'm thinking that as long as I'm playing around with Phi that the dimensions of the cone dimensions should follow the ratios of a Golden Triangle - and be used as a true "Walsh" driver. Treating the cone with BudP's EnABL pattern treatment to polish things off with and that should be one heck of a speaker!
Chinese has a great thread about his 14 inch full range speaker where he makes his own paper cones and I'm wondering what his methods combined with a natural long fiber material such a hemp would produce when combined with the stuff mentioned above.
Add a plasma tweeter and we are off to the races!! Hmmm - might as well toss in an Oskar Heil (back at cha - heh-heh) AMT in there somewhere just for SnG's!
I did a bunch of PWM stuff for controlling lighting dimmers used for stage lighting - and we were controlling lamps that had 2 KW bulbs in them. We used a micro processor to control things with (Mostek 6502 - back in the 70's) and triac's to control the AC. Just delayed the gating signal to the triac as to when it would pass current during the cycle - simple and works well - for AC tho.
What you need to come up with is a device (other than a dam) that will convert snow into a power source!! Ha-ha
I would like to work on a design that will convert all of the BS produced by politicians, news reporters, and TV ads into energy! Might need to break a couple of laws of physics tho - but there are some laws that just need changing!!
Hello el' Ol,
Thank you for the feedback. I have been following the Chinese post with great interest - as have many others. I really like the way this guy thinks stuff up and then just goes and puts something together. Great creative mind - plus the ability to put things into action!
Do you know if the Ciare HX201 is available in the States or not? It looks like a speaker I would like to play with!
Of course I would wind up putting on Mamoni's triangles, BudP's EnABLE pattern and using it like the Pioneer 10 inch used in Mamboni's design. I'm amazed at what happens when the speaker is taken out of the enclosure and let sing into the open air from the "back side".
Thank you for the feedback. I have been following the Chinese post with great interest - as have many others. I really like the way this guy thinks stuff up and then just goes and puts something together. Great creative mind - plus the ability to put things into action!
Do you know if the Ciare HX201 is available in the States or not? It looks like a speaker I would like to play with!
Of course I would wind up putting on Mamoni's triangles, BudP's EnABLE pattern and using it like the Pioneer 10 inch used in Mamboni's design. I'm amazed at what happens when the speaker is taken out of the enclosure and let sing into the open air from the "back side".
Hi Ed,
Thanks for the questions - and they are very good questions. You are very much on the right track of things but I'm going to defer to BudP's knowledge on the subject because he is the wizard
(a humble one tho) that patented the EnABL design.
BudP's patent number is 5304746 and you can look it up at the patent office site. It explains several things - but Bud will be able to explain things better himself. Great stuff!
A friendly word of warning tho - when I visit the patent office web site I tend to get lost there for several hours at a time and my mind comes out full of mush and throbbing as if it was placed in a vice!
Almost all patents site other patents and I wind up going there to read stuff - and that patent will cite other patents - and I wind up going there! I have learned to stop at just three.
If you should not hear from me for days at a time have my wife tell me to get the hell off the patent site and come back down to earth!!
Lynn Olsen discusses baffle type stuff over on his thread - and does it like about a thousand time better than I can.
BTW - the age of the body has little to do with the age of the mind - just give it some good mental exercise and it can stay in fairly good shape for a looooog time!!
Thanks for the questions - and they are very good questions. You are very much on the right track of things but I'm going to defer to BudP's knowledge on the subject because he is the wizard
(a humble one tho) that patented the EnABL design.BudP's patent number is 5304746 and you can look it up at the patent office site.
It explains several things - but Bud will be able to explain things better himself. Great stuff! A friendly word of warning tho - when I visit the patent office web site I tend to get lost there for several hours at a time and my mind comes out full of mush and throbbing as if it was placed in a vice!
Almost all patents site other patents and I wind up going there to read stuff - and that patent will cite other patents - and I wind up going there! I have learned to stop at just three.
If you should not hear from me for days at a time have my wife tell me to get the hell off the patent site and come back down to earth!!
Lynn Olsen discusses baffle type stuff over on his thread - and does it like about a thousand time better than I can.
BTW - the age of the body has little to do with the age of the mind - just give it some good mental exercise and it can stay in fairly good shape for a looooog time!!
Hi Ed,
I would like to come and join you in the back row.....
To get an idea of how and where box patterns are applied go here and scroll down to fig's 9, 10 and 11.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/standingwaves.htm
I only show a patten on the outside edge and it's individual block size Vs the size of the box is deliberately distorted by the patent attorneys. It does not show that another pattern, that would look a lot like a belt around two pulleys, can be placed where the two cut out holes are shown. Provides a nice blending zone for the drivers and also provides the needed two bands of blocks.
I do expand block size in direct proportion to edge length, though I do relent when they start to get too ridiculously large and double up the pattern. I have never done any sort of even ad hoc comparisons to justify these aberrations. I always calculate the equivalent cone circumference, to get an idea of how large the blocks should be. Then lay it out on polar coordinate graph paper just to find out what methods I need to use to apply it i.e. can I use a calligraphy pen or do I need to use masking tape and a paint roller...... like the one band shell I treated so long ago.
I tend to keep the final pattern block rows square to the edge I am trying to control, rather than square to a radian from the source. Conversely I try to keep any inner row of pattern blocks square to that same radian.
A tape edge would provide a small diffraction source but I suspect the blocks sticking up out of the local boundary layer volume will over whelm that edge. Though, if it is more than 1.5 mils thick a large enough total length of tape edge will likely alter what is accomplished.
As for cavitation in air, on a wing surface, with rapidly moving air around it and a series of colored oil drops applied to the air foil upper surface, before the fans began to blow, a before and after EnABL treatment experiment did show less feather of the oil at the trailing edge and less "snaking" as it crossed the surface before the edge. Am not competent to infer anything from this and it was about as scientific and controlled a study as watching ants.......... but I did look into it a bit.
For water, since it is essentially non compressible and very close to a super fluid, I suspect that the pattern would resemble divots, perhaps in a smooth edged half moon shape, taken out of the metal prop with the bisect of the circle at the trailing edge of the prop for the final row of divots.. This would allow for the expansion of the water as energy is being rejected by the pattern discontinuity and might keep the laminar flow constant across the pattern while removing the actual metal from the pressure discontinuity. Don't know and I do not recommend taking a dremel to your boat prop to find out, as this is just brain fizz here, without a single stick nor shred of evidence to support it with.
Bud
I would like to come and join you in the back row.....
To get an idea of how and where box patterns are applied go here and scroll down to fig's 9, 10 and 11.
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/standingwaves.htm
I only show a patten on the outside edge and it's individual block size Vs the size of the box is deliberately distorted by the patent attorneys. It does not show that another pattern, that would look a lot like a belt around two pulleys, can be placed where the two cut out holes are shown. Provides a nice blending zone for the drivers and also provides the needed two bands of blocks.
I do expand block size in direct proportion to edge length, though I do relent when they start to get too ridiculously large and double up the pattern. I have never done any sort of even ad hoc comparisons to justify these aberrations. I always calculate the equivalent cone circumference, to get an idea of how large the blocks should be. Then lay it out on polar coordinate graph paper just to find out what methods I need to use to apply it i.e. can I use a calligraphy pen or do I need to use masking tape and a paint roller...... like the one band shell I treated so long ago.
I tend to keep the final pattern block rows square to the edge I am trying to control, rather than square to a radian from the source. Conversely I try to keep any inner row of pattern blocks square to that same radian.
A tape edge would provide a small diffraction source but I suspect the blocks sticking up out of the local boundary layer volume will over whelm that edge. Though, if it is more than 1.5 mils thick a large enough total length of tape edge will likely alter what is accomplished.
As for cavitation in air, on a wing surface, with rapidly moving air around it and a series of colored oil drops applied to the air foil upper surface, before the fans began to blow, a before and after EnABL treatment experiment did show less feather of the oil at the trailing edge and less "snaking" as it crossed the surface before the edge. Am not competent to infer anything from this and it was about as scientific and controlled a study as watching ants.......... but I did look into it a bit.
For water, since it is essentially non compressible and very close to a super fluid, I suspect that the pattern would resemble divots, perhaps in a smooth edged half moon shape, taken out of the metal prop with the bisect of the circle at the trailing edge of the prop for the final row of divots.. This would allow for the expansion of the water as energy is being rejected by the pattern discontinuity and might keep the laminar flow constant across the pattern while removing the actual metal from the pressure discontinuity. Don't know and I do not recommend taking a dremel to your boat prop to find out, as this is just brain fizz here, without a single stick nor shred of evidence to support it with.
Bud
c2cthomas said:Hello el' Ol,
Do you know if the Ciare HX201 is available in the States or not? It looks like a speaker I would like to play with!
I know it was a problem to get the Ciare CH250 in the states, so probably also the HX201. In case you are going to order from overseas (e.g. Spectrumaudio), My design is: a 25x50x100cm folded TQWT, the driver on top on the side of the closed end. I also tried reflector cones (paper filled with PU mounting foam). It also works, but makes the spacial image flat compared to the ceiling as reflector.
regards, Oliver
Thomas,
Thanks for bumping me over to the patent site. I had to download a different ActiveX in order to print. I have a copy of the patent in hand now.
http://www.alternatiff.com/install/
BTW I'm listening to a pair of Lynn's ME2's that I built.
Bud,
I'm considering my options for the blocks...I'm a fool for wood...I'm concernerd that veneer (~0.020" or more?) might be too thick...and I wonder if sealer and lacquer would satisfy as a "conformal coating"...or is it too hard?
ahh...mental calisthenics...feel the burn!
Thanks for bumping me over to the patent site. I had to download a different ActiveX in order to print. I have a copy of the patent in hand now.
http://www.alternatiff.com/install/
BTW I'm listening to a pair of Lynn's ME2's that I built.
Bud,
I'm considering my options for the blocks...I'm a fool for wood...I'm concernerd that veneer (~0.020" or more?) might be too thick...and I wonder if sealer and lacquer would satisfy as a "conformal coating"...or is it too hard?
ahh...mental calisthenics...feel the burn!
A few novel ideas....thinking aloud.
I would like to share my own idea for the implementation of an enabl type pattern along the outside edge of a cabinet face like the baffle, or even an open flat baffle board that surrounds the loudspeaker driver(s). I am skeptical that a micro mass coating of a painted on pattern will have any useful effect on dampening vibrations in a massive panel board.
It seems to me that either the drilling of holes which will remove material according to the size and shape of the required pattern might be worth trying. One could control their effect by varying the depth of the holes and prevent air leaks by not drilling all the way through, or alternately by drilling the holes and then filling them with a dense material like a lead plug or mix of lead powder and epoxy resin. Again the depth of the plug can be controlled by the hole depth. The metal doesn`t have to be lead. Perhaps iron filings could be used.
How about filling the holes with a mixture of RTV Silicone (remains flexible and compliant when cured) filled with tiny lead shotgun pellets!!! This will actually convert the energy into heat.
A final thought in the case of a flat open baffle board. Perhaps drilling open holes all the way through the baffle representing the enabl pattern could be tried. This would not only affect the vibration pattern in the baffle edge but also work on the acoustical airflow at this boundary, possibly mitigating the acoustical diffraction effect.
I would like to share my own idea for the implementation of an enabl type pattern along the outside edge of a cabinet face like the baffle, or even an open flat baffle board that surrounds the loudspeaker driver(s). I am skeptical that a micro mass coating of a painted on pattern will have any useful effect on dampening vibrations in a massive panel board.
It seems to me that either the drilling of holes which will remove material according to the size and shape of the required pattern might be worth trying. One could control their effect by varying the depth of the holes and prevent air leaks by not drilling all the way through, or alternately by drilling the holes and then filling them with a dense material like a lead plug or mix of lead powder and epoxy resin. Again the depth of the plug can be controlled by the hole depth. The metal doesn`t have to be lead. Perhaps iron filings could be used.
How about filling the holes with a mixture of RTV Silicone (remains flexible and compliant when cured) filled with tiny lead shotgun pellets!!! This will actually convert the energy into heat.
A final thought in the case of a flat open baffle board. Perhaps drilling open holes all the way through the baffle representing the enabl pattern could be tried. This would not only affect the vibration pattern in the baffle edge but also work on the acoustical airflow at this boundary, possibly mitigating the acoustical diffraction effect.
Hi Ed,
I have never tried putting an EnABL pattern under veneer, if that is what you meant?
I have used the flat clear acrylic paint under the conformal coat I call for, as a wood veneer finish. It was unsatisfactory, due to it's desire to bubble madly with no provocation I could detect. What I have ended up doing is just putting it on top of a sealed veneer and then recoating over it with the conformal coating. If you are careful you have to be right up on it to see the results. Certainly not perfect.
The problem here is finding another product that has the same vital characteristic of allowing, and that qualifier is important, the speed of a transverse wave, traveling within the coating material, as the root of the boundary layer it is expressing from, to exceed the speed of sound, as a compression wave, in air. I did find a very fine hard shell furniture lacquer many years ago but not only can I not find it anymore, I can't remember it's name..... I wonder if the two are related somehow.....?
Your options are to buy a bunch of really cheap 8" full range pa speakers , apply the pattern, and coat with as many "Diamond Hard" sponge surface coating materials as you can find. That is what I did and occasionally must do, when some hot new chemists show up at whatever factory makes the stuff I am buying.
You will learn what does and does not work by how it affects the sound, with slow materials actually changing the timbre of a note from correct to flat and rather sick sounding.
Bud
I have never tried putting an EnABL pattern under veneer, if that is what you meant?
I have used the flat clear acrylic paint under the conformal coat I call for, as a wood veneer finish. It was unsatisfactory, due to it's desire to bubble madly with no provocation I could detect. What I have ended up doing is just putting it on top of a sealed veneer and then recoating over it with the conformal coating. If you are careful you have to be right up on it to see the results. Certainly not perfect.
The problem here is finding another product that has the same vital characteristic of allowing, and that qualifier is important, the speed of a transverse wave, traveling within the coating material, as the root of the boundary layer it is expressing from, to exceed the speed of sound, as a compression wave, in air. I did find a very fine hard shell furniture lacquer many years ago but not only can I not find it anymore, I can't remember it's name..... I wonder if the two are related somehow.....?
Your options are to buy a bunch of really cheap 8" full range pa speakers , apply the pattern, and coat with as many "Diamond Hard" sponge surface coating materials as you can find. That is what I did and occasionally must do, when some hot new chemists show up at whatever factory makes the stuff I am buying.
You will learn what does and does not work by how it affects the sound, with slow materials actually changing the timbre of a note from correct to flat and rather sick sounding.
Bud
rcavictim,
Someday you will have to share with us just what caused your choice of moniker.
I am afraid I have to perform open mind set surgery on you.
I am not advocating any sort of damping process.
Nothing I do in the EnABL realm has anything to do with damping of any sort.
I realize it is painful to let go of the devil you know, but to understand what I am up to you really must leap into the vast empty spaces without the Wings of Damping attached to your mind.
When you damp an active surface you store and either never release the energy and transform it to another form, or you re-release it over time. No other choices are allowed on this dirt ball.
Unless you have a perfect containment as a damping scheme, you will suffer corruptions to the energy left, after damping. Plus there is this critical Q of just how much is just enough?
Rather than fight this battle of mass and space and taste I just fling the energy off the precipice edge, into the air, without damping of any kind, but, I fling all of it off the edge at the same time and at the same angle of incidence and into the same longitudinal pressure wave.
The EnABL pattern is a trap for unsuspecting energy. Note, you can stack energy and stacked energy does present only the option of further stacking to any additional energy attempting to occupy the same location. As the energy passes through the pattern it stacks within the "passes" and since it is in a three vector wave guide, that extra stacking will cause quite a lot of the energy stacked therein to just express into the attached longitudinal pressure wave being built anyway.
The distance to the "edge" from the pattern is so short that energy that gets scared and refuses to jump willingly is collected by the wave of energy flowing into the longitudinal wave and also jumps off the surface into that third vector. Since the energy density is so great in this trap area it acts like a super fluid with a high surface tension and very little energy remains in the boundary layer, past the EnABL pattern.
This remanent energy does re-radiate back through the pattern in the boundary layer, to travel back across that boundary layer, only to find yet another trap. The two laser interferometry looks I have had at this activity indicate that this energy that does remain is on the order of 80 dB down from the original signal, for non systemic resonances.
I do not know if the EnABL pattern can be used to further a damping scheme. I find that I am uninterested actually, mostly because I am still gasping for mental breath from having unearthed all of this thought process, from the mental dust bin I consigned it to 5 years ago or so.
It is good that you are stretching your mind to encompass an entirely new approach to energy management in our neat interest realm.
If you want to pursue mass damping instead so be it, but really, when done properly, this scheme works so well that there is nothing left worth damping.
Bud
Someday you will have to share with us just what caused your choice of moniker.
I am afraid I have to perform open mind set surgery on you.
I am not advocating any sort of damping process.
Nothing I do in the EnABL realm has anything to do with damping of any sort.
I realize it is painful to let go of the devil you know, but to understand what I am up to you really must leap into the vast empty spaces without the Wings of Damping attached to your mind.
When you damp an active surface you store and either never release the energy and transform it to another form, or you re-release it over time. No other choices are allowed on this dirt ball.
Unless you have a perfect containment as a damping scheme, you will suffer corruptions to the energy left, after damping. Plus there is this critical Q of just how much is just enough?
Rather than fight this battle of mass and space and taste I just fling the energy off the precipice edge, into the air, without damping of any kind, but, I fling all of it off the edge at the same time and at the same angle of incidence and into the same longitudinal pressure wave.
The EnABL pattern is a trap for unsuspecting energy. Note, you can stack energy and stacked energy does present only the option of further stacking to any additional energy attempting to occupy the same location. As the energy passes through the pattern it stacks within the "passes" and since it is in a three vector wave guide, that extra stacking will cause quite a lot of the energy stacked therein to just express into the attached longitudinal pressure wave being built anyway.
The distance to the "edge" from the pattern is so short that energy that gets scared and refuses to jump willingly is collected by the wave of energy flowing into the longitudinal wave and also jumps off the surface into that third vector. Since the energy density is so great in this trap area it acts like a super fluid with a high surface tension and very little energy remains in the boundary layer, past the EnABL pattern.
This remanent energy does re-radiate back through the pattern in the boundary layer, to travel back across that boundary layer, only to find yet another trap. The two laser interferometry looks I have had at this activity indicate that this energy that does remain is on the order of 80 dB down from the original signal, for non systemic resonances.
I do not know if the EnABL pattern can be used to further a damping scheme. I find that I am uninterested actually, mostly because I am still gasping for mental breath from having unearthed all of this thought process, from the mental dust bin I consigned it to 5 years ago or so.
It is good that you are stretching your mind to encompass an entirely new approach to energy management in our neat interest realm.
If you want to pursue mass damping instead so be it, but really, when done properly, this scheme works so well that there is nothing left worth damping.
Bud
Hi again Bob,
I find that, indeed, I am not uninterested in mass damping schemes.
The thought decanted into my awareness is primarily for an Open Baffle speaker. Imagine a rectangular frame with openings to allow pouring of sand into this rectangle once it is skinned. Skin with constrained layers of mahogany single ply with viscous glue as the layer constraint and each laer growing in size and changing from a rectangle into a musical instrument style of French Curve terminus edges.
Your spaces with lead balls are distributed through out the ply layers to ensnare energy pulses that excurt beyond a single ply skin and the final ply has the EnABL pattern applied for final surface control.
The back side would also be constrained layer skins but would devolve in size to provide a shaped back bezel with a longer path length than the front side, to encourage a back angled phase skirt for the null zone.
All drivers would be mounted to MDF rings, held in place with thin dowels and supported by the sand and outer ply skins.
In my brain, the various layers reduce the systemic resonances layer by layer and the curlicued final shape provides a non symmetrical path length, further limiting the creation of standing waves.
Ed,
I meant to say that I take a finished cabinet, apply the pattern with flat clear acrylic paint and then cover only the pattern with the conformal coating. That the conformal coating material, not the pattern paint, was the mad to bubble material mentioned, with out excuse nor seeming remorse for it's criminal behavior.
Bud
I find that, indeed, I am not uninterested in mass damping schemes.
The thought decanted into my awareness is primarily for an Open Baffle speaker. Imagine a rectangular frame with openings to allow pouring of sand into this rectangle once it is skinned. Skin with constrained layers of mahogany single ply with viscous glue as the layer constraint and each laer growing in size and changing from a rectangle into a musical instrument style of French Curve terminus edges.
Your spaces with lead balls are distributed through out the ply layers to ensnare energy pulses that excurt beyond a single ply skin and the final ply has the EnABL pattern applied for final surface control.
The back side would also be constrained layer skins but would devolve in size to provide a shaped back bezel with a longer path length than the front side, to encourage a back angled phase skirt for the null zone.
All drivers would be mounted to MDF rings, held in place with thin dowels and supported by the sand and outer ply skins.
In my brain, the various layers reduce the systemic resonances layer by layer and the curlicued final shape provides a non symmetrical path length, further limiting the creation of standing waves.
Ed,
I meant to say that I take a finished cabinet, apply the pattern with flat clear acrylic paint and then cover only the pattern with the conformal coating. That the conformal coating material, not the pattern paint, was the mad to bubble material mentioned, with out excuse nor seeming remorse for it's criminal behavior.
Bud
Hi Bob,
...as an aside there is music and truth in what you share with us....and no lack of humor in the harsh reality we wrestle with, to wit:
I just love that.
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear expressing my interest in veneer. I envision rectangles of veneer attached to the raw wood of the baffle in the EnABL pattern. This followed by the application of a "normal" cabinet finish. I'm including in this the concern of a designer: whether to "hide or accentuate" the pattern. The veneer could be the same species as the baffle or chosen to offer a contrast.
My question was a suggestion (sorry again...no wonder it didn't translate) to substitute and apply an EnABL pattern made from wood rather than brushed on, and then apply the cabinet finish, hence my concern for the thickness of veneer exceeding what is appropriate for the pattern to be effective.
...as an aside there is music and truth in what you share with us....and no lack of humor in the harsh reality we wrestle with, to wit:
I just love that.
I'm sorry I wasn't more clear expressing my interest in veneer. I envision rectangles of veneer attached to the raw wood of the baffle in the EnABL pattern. This followed by the application of a "normal" cabinet finish. I'm including in this the concern of a designer: whether to "hide or accentuate" the pattern. The veneer could be the same species as the baffle or chosen to offer a contrast.
My question was a suggestion (sorry again...no wonder it didn't translate) to substitute and apply an EnABL pattern made from wood rather than brushed on, and then apply the cabinet finish, hence my concern for the thickness of veneer exceeding what is appropriate for the pattern to be effective.
Bud,
Out here in the country we find a thick and dense rubber matting called `cow mat` which is placed on the dirt floor in a barn to add some comfort for the critter1s feet. Cow Mat, about 5/8-3/4 inch thick, would also be a good thing to place on a concrete floor in front of an electrical work bench. I have looked at it with the idea of laminating it on the inside of a MDF speaker cabinet to act as dual layer vibration control. Maybe instead of what you went on to propose above it would be easier and almost as effective in practise to just cut an open baffle out of Cow Mat the shape of a large sunflower. Yellow paint optional. A triangular jutted edge is a proven method of reducing standing waves at the terminus of a surface. I have used it with great success to improve bandwidth and Z match (lower VSWR) in my microwave antenna work.
Yes, must figure out how to turn a snow drift into electricity.
Re: my moniker.....
I could have called myself ThomsonCSFvictim, but that is not nearly as clever or schmood, plus I saw that sham and have not allowed myself to actually become a `victim`. I like and continue to collect and be impressed with the stuff RCA developed in the `good old days` of vacuum toobz including a bunch of their fine 1940`s television receivers and 1950`s color television receivers (they effectively invented the NTSC system we use today). As an indefatiguable punster, in all the fractured manufacturer trademark and poroduct names I ever came up with and there were many, Black and Blacker, Hell and Bowel, Empirical Whip, etc., rcavictim was my fave.
Out here in the country we find a thick and dense rubber matting called `cow mat` which is placed on the dirt floor in a barn to add some comfort for the critter1s feet. Cow Mat, about 5/8-3/4 inch thick, would also be a good thing to place on a concrete floor in front of an electrical work bench. I have looked at it with the idea of laminating it on the inside of a MDF speaker cabinet to act as dual layer vibration control. Maybe instead of what you went on to propose above it would be easier and almost as effective in practise to just cut an open baffle out of Cow Mat the shape of a large sunflower. Yellow paint optional.
A triangular jutted edge is a proven method of reducing standing waves at the terminus of a surface. I have used it with great success to improve bandwidth and Z match (lower VSWR) in my microwave antenna work.Yes, must figure out how to turn a snow drift into electricity.
Re: my moniker.....
I could have called myself ThomsonCSFvictim, but that is not nearly as clever or schmood, plus I saw that sham and have not allowed myself to actually become a `victim`. I like and continue to collect and be impressed with the stuff RCA developed in the `good old days` of vacuum toobz including a bunch of their fine 1940`s television receivers and 1950`s color television receivers (they effectively invented the NTSC system we use today). As an indefatiguable punster, in all the fractured manufacturer trademark and poroduct names I ever came up with and there were many, Black and Blacker, Hell and Bowel, Empirical Whip, etc., rcavictim was my fave.
That trip to the Patent Office was worth it (search for # 5304746).
Having read through it the first time I've found most of my questions answered. It is heady stuff in that what is being offered is outside of the box I've been in.
I had to put down the urge to ask "How could that happen?" several times in order to push through it. I'm gonna step outside and read it again before posing more questions.
Regarding my misallocation of credit due Bud, sometimes Mongo just kicks poetry right off the porch.
Having read through it the first time I've found most of my questions answered. It is heady stuff in that what is being offered is outside of the box I've been in.
I had to put down the urge to ask "How could that happen?" several times in order to push through it. I'm gonna step outside and read it again before posing more questions.
Regarding my misallocation of credit due Bud, sometimes Mongo just kicks poetry right off the porch.
Hi Ed,
I know exactly what you mean. In the usual best pea patch manner, I am quite self absorbed when on one of these rampages. There are more we haven't discussed yet. It is only when I can catch my breath and stand back, that the fear sets in.
Questions like "How could this be" are usually for later. "What have I done" and "are they are gonna commit me over this one" are early candidates. Trust me, the EnABL thing is not the most unbelievable activity I have going on here. It is the only one I was ever foolish enough to patent. The rest of the non mainstream plants from this here pea patch just twist your head around and the only sound that will come out of your mouth is vooooodooooooo.
I am just getting around to enjoying the thoughts Bob offered a little earlier. The one about using pre-splatted cow barn padding to make pointy ended, yellow colored flower petal, Open Baffle, speaker boards from, does appeal, once you get over the mental pictures and olfactory expectations. That, Empirical Whip and Black and Blacker are very resonant here in the Pea Patch of the mad, out on the upper left crust of the united snakes....
Thomas tells me privately that he is working the problem of application. Spending money like grandpaw at christmas and having great fun.
Bud
I know exactly what you mean. In the usual best pea patch manner, I am quite self absorbed when on one of these rampages. There are more we haven't discussed yet. It is only when I can catch my breath and stand back, that the fear sets in.
Questions like "How could this be" are usually for later. "What have I done" and "are they are gonna commit me over this one" are early candidates. Trust me, the EnABL thing is not the most unbelievable activity I have going on here. It is the only one I was ever foolish enough to patent. The rest of the non mainstream plants from this here pea patch just twist your head around and the only sound that will come out of your mouth is vooooodooooooo.
I am just getting around to enjoying the thoughts Bob offered a little earlier. The one about using pre-splatted cow barn padding to make pointy ended, yellow colored flower petal, Open Baffle, speaker boards from, does appeal, once you get over the mental pictures and olfactory expectations. That, Empirical Whip and Black and Blacker are very resonant here in the Pea Patch of the mad, out on the upper left crust of the united snakes....
Thomas tells me privately that he is working the problem of application. Spending money like grandpaw at christmas and having great fun.
Bud
rcavictim said:Bud,
Re: my moniker.....
I could have called myself ThomsonCSFvictim, but that is not nearly as clever or schmood, plus I saw that sham and have not allowed myself to actually become a `victim`. I like and continue to collect and be impressed with the stuff RCA developed in the `good old days` of vacuum toobz including a bunch of their fine 1940`s television receivers and 1950`s color television receivers (they effectively invented the NTSC system we use today). As an indefatiguable punster, in all the fractured manufacturer trademark and poroduct names I ever came up with and there were many, Black and Blacker, Hell and Bowel, Empirical Whip, etc., rcavictim was my fave.
I own one of the late generation RCA 36" HDTV's - which although having crapped out in the analog-TV tuner section, displays 480i, 480p, and 1080i from the cable box just fine. (The TV is actually a giant multi-sync crt monitor, with the screen losing sync, blacking out and making a loud "clunk" when the sync rate is changed.)
What's really crazy is the corporate history - the set and the owner's handbook say "RCA", but it was made when Thomson CSF owned the brand. And of course Thomson is the French government-owned company that developed - wait for it - SECAM color, the notorious "System Against American Method" that is completely and totally incompatible with NTSC. (While by contrast the German Telefunken PAL system is an elegant refinement and further development of NTSC color.)
And just to mix things up even more, RCA was a prominent participant on the long-running ATSC effort to develop digital HDTV. Not that I can recommend buying one - although the color is nicer than Sony color (which seems to use non-standard phosphors and colorimetry), the reliability is nothing to write home about. But the monitor part of the set soldiers on, sharp and with good convergence, so I'm not planning on buying a 1080P microdisplay set any time soon.
Lynn,
Well if we didn`t get lucky once in a while life wouldn`t be much worth living now would it.
You mentioned colorimetry. RCA invented the tricolor kinescope tube and the first ones had phosphors that did the right colors. Unfortunately they weren`t all that efficient, the red being rather poor and consequently the electronics driving the red gun needed two triodes parallelled up to give that one gun more drive current. That gun would usually go flat before the other two rendering these CRT`s short lived. The colors had correct colorimetry however and the tube could reproduce a proper yellow (this seems to be a good test). The early correct but dim phosphors appeared in the 15GP22 (1954), 21AXP22 metal cone (1955) and finally the 21CYP22 (1957-1959?) CRTs. The last one was phased out in the very late 1950`s, replaced with a much brighter tube the 21FBP22 and shortly thereafter 21FJP22 (a 21FBP22 with a bonded safety glass). Although brighter by a large amount the colorimetry of the phosphors, particularly the red were slightly wrong. They won`t make a nice yellow. This tube was then used by all the TV manufacturers (RCA held the patent and issued liscenses) until the venerable 21 inch round color tube was replaced by the various rectangular tubes starting circa 1966/67. Since my vintage TV collecting ends with the last of the round CRT`s I don`t know what happened since. I have sets in my collection which use the first three color CRT`s but have only seen a color picture briefly on the 21CYP22 equipped set. I need to restore that one so I can really see what the proper colorimetry looks like.
I guess this went a bit off topic.
BTW, my apologies for the typos I did not catch like poroduct.
Well if we didn`t get lucky once in a while life wouldn`t be much worth living now would it.
You mentioned colorimetry. RCA invented the tricolor kinescope tube and the first ones had phosphors that did the right colors. Unfortunately they weren`t all that efficient, the red being rather poor and consequently the electronics driving the red gun needed two triodes parallelled up to give that one gun more drive current. That gun would usually go flat before the other two rendering these CRT`s short lived. The colors had correct colorimetry however and the tube could reproduce a proper yellow (this seems to be a good test). The early correct but dim phosphors appeared in the 15GP22 (1954), 21AXP22 metal cone (1955) and finally the 21CYP22 (1957-1959?) CRTs. The last one was phased out in the very late 1950`s, replaced with a much brighter tube the 21FBP22 and shortly thereafter 21FJP22 (a 21FBP22 with a bonded safety glass). Although brighter by a large amount the colorimetry of the phosphors, particularly the red were slightly wrong. They won`t make a nice yellow. This tube was then used by all the TV manufacturers (RCA held the patent and issued liscenses) until the venerable 21 inch round color tube was replaced by the various rectangular tubes starting circa 1966/67. Since my vintage TV collecting ends with the last of the round CRT`s I don`t know what happened since. I have sets in my collection which use the first three color CRT`s but have only seen a color picture briefly on the 21CYP22 equipped set. I need to restore that one so I can really see what the proper colorimetry looks like.
I guess this went a bit off topic.
BTW, my apologies for the typos I did not catch like poroduct.
Hi R Jamm,
I will finish building up the 2nd test speaker tomorrow. On this 2nd speaker I have reduced the height by 4 inch's from 28 inch to 24 inch. The reason for this is that with the 28 inch speaker I notice a "richer" sound when I stand up and my ear is above the baffle and speaker frame - so I am trying to get that same richness when I am sitting. I thought of reducing the height even more but was afraid I would lose to much bass response. I'll know tomorrow when I finish building unit number 2.
I must say that the Pioneer 10 inch mid-woofer doesn't seem to take much to break in - about a day seems to it! My Fostex 167's took a solid week - heck they were so tight when they were new that I had to kick up the amp to around 90db's just to get 'em moving and then back it off to mid level and just let 'em cook. The Pioneer fired up right away and seemed pretty good from the get-go!
I am still amazed by the openness of the sound these units produce! Taking the speaker box pretty much out of the usual scheme of being a "box" that "aims" the direction of the traditional speaker is nixed and these things - they sound similar to OB designs - very open sound and very smooth.
I'm looking around for a different tweeter than my Heils - just to see what is out there in today's world. My current thinking is to use a tweeter that is good from say 3 khz up to above 18 Khz and mount it in a similar configuration as the Pioneer (reduced in scale of course) and flip it upside down so the magnet of the tweeter would be back to back with the magnet of the Pioneer. I'll work up a sketch and put in a later post to show what I'm thinking of.
I'm also thinking that the baffle the Pioneer sits atop of is a bit to wide because of the 14 inch SonoTube I'm using. So I'm considering putting a dome shaped baffle on one of the test units and doing some EnABL patterns to see how that helps smooth things out.
One thing that I'm still very sure of - for the cost and ease of construction this is one heck of a speaker!
I FINALLY got my Micro Gloss delivered at the local hobby shop so now I can start doing some of BudP's EnABL patterns!!
The stencil experiments just did not work out well at all - although I still want to try a couple of things. Right now it looks like the way I'll go with applying EnABL is to use Speedball Calligraphy Pens - sizes A0 thru A5 (square, flat tip on the A series) and the Polly S acrylic paint. I'll print out a pattern on regular paper and trim it down to a size that I can tape to the speaker near the area to be treated and use it as a guide. Then it's a careful touch with the correct sized Speedball tip and whack-o - my speaker cones have been EnABLed!
BTW - the problem with the silkscreen stencil was that the Polly S paint is so thin that it would creep underneath the edge of the screen and blot out around the edge of the pattern. It could make for a rather interesting "ink blot" test (perhaps something I should be considering
) but not a very good application of BudP's EnABL pattern.
I noticed on another thread that there is some discussion of BudP getting his own EnABL thread going here sometime soon. Congratulations Bud!
My suggestion is to put an EnABL pattern all the way around the edges of it in order to keep things smooth and dump off all distortions and distractions. But then I guess that most of the stuff I'd post would wind up in the bit bucket! :bs:
Attached is a photo of test tube #2! I will report on the findings!
I will finish building up the 2nd test speaker tomorrow. On this 2nd speaker I have reduced the height by 4 inch's from 28 inch to 24 inch. The reason for this is that with the 28 inch speaker I notice a "richer" sound when I stand up and my ear is above the baffle and speaker frame - so I am trying to get that same richness when I am sitting. I thought of reducing the height even more but was afraid I would lose to much bass response. I'll know tomorrow when I finish building unit number 2.
I must say that the Pioneer 10 inch mid-woofer doesn't seem to take much to break in - about a day seems to it! My Fostex 167's took a solid week - heck they were so tight when they were new that I had to kick up the amp to around 90db's just to get 'em moving and then back it off to mid level and just let 'em cook. The Pioneer fired up right away and seemed pretty good from the get-go!
I am still amazed by the openness of the sound these units produce! Taking the speaker box pretty much out of the usual scheme of being a "box" that "aims" the direction of the traditional speaker is nixed and these things - they sound similar to OB designs - very open sound and very smooth.
I'm looking around for a different tweeter than my Heils - just to see what is out there in today's world. My current thinking is to use a tweeter that is good from say 3 khz up to above 18 Khz and mount it in a similar configuration as the Pioneer (reduced in scale of course) and flip it upside down so the magnet of the tweeter would be back to back with the magnet of the Pioneer. I'll work up a sketch and put in a later post to show what I'm thinking of.
I'm also thinking that the baffle the Pioneer sits atop of is a bit to wide because of the 14 inch SonoTube I'm using. So I'm considering putting a dome shaped baffle on one of the test units and doing some EnABL patterns to see how that helps smooth things out.
One thing that I'm still very sure of - for the cost and ease of construction this is one heck of a speaker!
I FINALLY got my Micro Gloss delivered at the local hobby shop so now I can start doing some of BudP's EnABL patterns!!
The stencil experiments just did not work out well at all - although I still want to try a couple of things. Right now it looks like the way I'll go with applying EnABL is to use Speedball Calligraphy Pens - sizes A0 thru A5 (square, flat tip on the A series) and the Polly S acrylic paint. I'll print out a pattern on regular paper and trim it down to a size that I can tape to the speaker near the area to be treated and use it as a guide. Then it's a careful touch with the correct sized Speedball tip and whack-o - my speaker cones have been EnABLed!
BTW - the problem with the silkscreen stencil was that the Polly S paint is so thin that it would creep underneath the edge of the screen and blot out around the edge of the pattern. It could make for a rather interesting "ink blot" test (perhaps something I should be considering
) but not a very good application of BudP's EnABL pattern.I noticed on another thread that there is some discussion of BudP getting his own EnABL thread going here sometime soon. Congratulations Bud!
My suggestion is to put an EnABL pattern all the way around the edges of it in order to keep things smooth and dump off all distortions and distractions.
But then I guess that most of the stuff I'd post would wind up in the bit bucket! :bs: Attached is a photo of test tube #2! I will report on the findings!