mamboni asked this in post #94 and BudP responded in post #96. It's Bud's idea and pattern so I don't want to speak for him out of my respect for his research and knowledge of his EnABL pattern. Heck - BudP holds the patent - so input from him is good as it can get! 
One sure way to find out - go do it!!
If the round blocks don't work they will make good markers for where you want to place the squares - so no harm done. I wouldn't try it out on your favorite $500.00 super speakers until I had done a little learning on the Pioneer speaker that mamboni recommends. It's a $45.00 speaker that has been proven to work with his felt triangles.
Thomas
BTW - I just got my funding request approved by my higher authority (Spousal Unit) so I'm ordering speakers and looking for a local source of SonoTube. YEA!!!
One sure way to find out - go do it!!
If the round blocks don't work they will make good markers for where you want to place the squares - so no harm done. I wouldn't try it out on your favorite $500.00 super speakers until I had done a little learning on the Pioneer speaker that mamboni recommends. It's a $45.00 speaker that has been proven to work with his felt triangles.
Thomas
BTW - I just got my funding request approved by my higher authority (Spousal Unit) so I'm ordering speakers and looking for a local source of SonoTube. YEA!!!
Utopix,
Sorry, I was so tired last night that I did not notice how far I had strayed from your idea, until this morning, when I awoke from a dream about being lectured for short sightedness.
The one piece panel that you are talking about will work. I suspect it needs to be made from vinyl and might best be made with a sign makers vinyl cutting machine. although I have never even seen one of these to know if it will cut rectangles in the middle of a space, rather than have it slice to the spot and then cut the rectangle.
I am willing to provide a specific pattern size for you to experiment with. Because of the number of times that you will have to peel and reattach you may need more than one application of the 3M tack adhesive Thomas was talking about.
Again I apologize for stomping all over your idea last night, I will probably do it again though.
Bud
Sorry, I was so tired last night that I did not notice how far I had strayed from your idea, until this morning, when I awoke from a dream about being lectured for short sightedness.
The one piece panel that you are talking about will work. I suspect it needs to be made from vinyl and might best be made with a sign makers vinyl cutting machine. although I have never even seen one of these to know if it will cut rectangles in the middle of a space, rather than have it slice to the spot and then cut the rectangle.
I am willing to provide a specific pattern size for you to experiment with. Because of the number of times that you will have to peel and reattach you may need more than one application of the 3M tack adhesive Thomas was talking about.
Again I apologize for stomping all over your idea last night, I will probably do it again though.
Bud
rcavictim,
I did perform an ad hoc wave tank test many years ago, and made simple line drawings of the results. If you would like to analyze them I will dig them up and put them into a pdf for you to look at. I will caution you that the effect they portray caused my high energy physicist friend who witnessed them, to claim they were the same as magic... something happening in front of his eyes that he not only did not understand but could not believe he was seeing.
A short description is a set of blocks, meaning two from one ring and a center set from the adjacent ring were cut from two pieces of 3/8" thick wood, as fingers sticking out from the edge about 1/2 inch. In other words every thing but the fingers was cut away and the resultant blocks followed the pattern array dimensions shown in the patent.
These block holders were sized to fit stiffly between the narrow walls of a 8 inch by 4 foot fish tank, half filled with water, about 6 inches deep Fluorescent lights were positioned underneath, lengthwise, and a piece of white cardboard was hung a couple of feet above the tank, to show the shadows of any wave action in the tank. A 6 inch wide dipping paddle was used to agitate the water at one end of the tank and the pattern holders were positioned six inches away from the dipping end of the tank, with the fingers into the water about a quarter of an inch. I make no claims about scientific rigor being used here, I just wanted some idea of what the heck was going on!
When the dipper was agitated, mostly up and down, without the pattern blocks pushed down into the water the expected choppy surface with waves that eventually became quite chaotic in direction arose after a few moments of agitation and took a few tens of seconds to completely dissipate and allow the water to become calm again.
When the pattern was shoved into the water that quarter inch and the dipper agitation restarted, a checkerboard pattern arose between the pattern and the dipper and from the other side, seemingly in perfect sync with each of the dipper strokes, a smooth, straight line of wave appeared from the pattern edge shadow, flowed to the end of the tank and dissipated without any obvious reflections. This pattern of activity held until you stopped dipping and the last wave occurred with the last dipper stroke and the water surface quickly became calm again.
All of this was clearly shown on the white cardboard surface as shadows. There was a pretty wide range of dipping cycle speeds that provided this effect, as the dipping was done by hand. I did not explore the out of range effects at the time so I cannot report on the failure modes.
Round pattern dots work fine, down to about 4 kHz and out to beyond my ability to measure. Below this vague cut off point the square edged shape begins to become necessary, though these "square" edged blocks usually are not all that square edged, but definitely not round either. I am quite certain, through some experimentation, that many "shapes" will work, some better than others at certain frequency ranges on certain materials, other than paper.
The rectangular in spirit blocks seem to work across the frequency band though at this late date I no longer try to make rectangular shapes on small high frequency drivers. Round dots, thankfully, work here very well. In fact I just treated a set of Pioneer piezio electric film tweeter to use to top off the high frequencies from the Radio Shack Linnaeum, baby cheek, soft horn wall tweeters I use. These only provide signal out to 13 kHz and the Pioneer half round "can" shaped devices are on a 0.22 mfd induced slope to match and extend out to 30 kHz or so..
Bud
I did perform an ad hoc wave tank test many years ago, and made simple line drawings of the results. If you would like to analyze them I will dig them up and put them into a pdf for you to look at. I will caution you that the effect they portray caused my high energy physicist friend who witnessed them, to claim they were the same as magic... something happening in front of his eyes that he not only did not understand but could not believe he was seeing.
A short description is a set of blocks, meaning two from one ring and a center set from the adjacent ring were cut from two pieces of 3/8" thick wood, as fingers sticking out from the edge about 1/2 inch. In other words every thing but the fingers was cut away and the resultant blocks followed the pattern array dimensions shown in the patent.
These block holders were sized to fit stiffly between the narrow walls of a 8 inch by 4 foot fish tank, half filled with water, about 6 inches deep Fluorescent lights were positioned underneath, lengthwise, and a piece of white cardboard was hung a couple of feet above the tank, to show the shadows of any wave action in the tank. A 6 inch wide dipping paddle was used to agitate the water at one end of the tank and the pattern holders were positioned six inches away from the dipping end of the tank, with the fingers into the water about a quarter of an inch. I make no claims about scientific rigor being used here, I just wanted some idea of what the heck was going on!
When the dipper was agitated, mostly up and down, without the pattern blocks pushed down into the water the expected choppy surface with waves that eventually became quite chaotic in direction arose after a few moments of agitation and took a few tens of seconds to completely dissipate and allow the water to become calm again.
When the pattern was shoved into the water that quarter inch and the dipper agitation restarted, a checkerboard pattern arose between the pattern and the dipper and from the other side, seemingly in perfect sync with each of the dipper strokes, a smooth, straight line of wave appeared from the pattern edge shadow, flowed to the end of the tank and dissipated without any obvious reflections. This pattern of activity held until you stopped dipping and the last wave occurred with the last dipper stroke and the water surface quickly became calm again.
All of this was clearly shown on the white cardboard surface as shadows. There was a pretty wide range of dipping cycle speeds that provided this effect, as the dipping was done by hand. I did not explore the out of range effects at the time so I cannot report on the failure modes.
Round pattern dots work fine, down to about 4 kHz and out to beyond my ability to measure. Below this vague cut off point the square edged shape begins to become necessary, though these "square" edged blocks usually are not all that square edged, but definitely not round either. I am quite certain, through some experimentation, that many "shapes" will work, some better than others at certain frequency ranges on certain materials, other than paper.
The rectangular in spirit blocks seem to work across the frequency band though at this late date I no longer try to make rectangular shapes on small high frequency drivers. Round dots, thankfully, work here very well. In fact I just treated a set of Pioneer piezio electric film tweeter to use to top off the high frequencies from the Radio Shack Linnaeum, baby cheek, soft horn wall tweeters I use. These only provide signal out to 13 kHz and the Pioneer half round "can" shaped devices are on a 0.22 mfd induced slope to match and extend out to 30 kHz or so..
Bud
Hi Mamboni!
I have the Pioneer speakers on order along with the caps and resistors and adhesive as per your spec's.
I have located some sources for felt but then I realized that I'm not sure exactly what type of felt I'm looking for!
Are there any guide lines as to thickness or density? From your photo's I'm guessing about a 1/4 inch (6 mm) thickness of medium density was used. Is the type of felt used critical?
Thank You!
Thomas
I have the Pioneer speakers on order along with the caps and resistors and adhesive as per your spec's.
I have located some sources for felt but then I realized that I'm not sure exactly what type of felt I'm looking for!
Are there any guide lines as to thickness or density? From your photo's I'm guessing about a 1/4 inch (6 mm) thickness of medium density was used. Is the type of felt used critical?
Thank You!
Thomas
BudP said:
BudP
I was just reading your first post and on this subjet and I was feeling that something was not clear. Sometimes its my writing that is not enough precise (English is not my first language) . Now,I think that we are in sync.
Thanks for your offer for providing some test pattern for me to experiment with. I will definitively come back to you on this subject in approx. 2 months. I have in front of me some major renovation project at my place and I feel that all my weekends will be spent on this. But beware, my interest in this topic is growing each and every day. Maybe I will be able to make some Sonotube enclosure before the end of April and be ready before May hopefully.
Cheers
Utopix.
c2cthomas said:Hi Mamboni!
I have the Pioneer speakers on order along with the caps and resistors and adhesive as per your spec's.
I have located some sources for felt but then I realized that I'm not sure exactly what type of felt I'm looking for!
Are there any guide lines as to thickness or density? From your photo's I'm guessing about a 1/4 inch (6 mm) thickness of medium density was used. Is the type of felt used critical?
Thank You!
Thomas
I used standard felt cloth that is used in craft projects. You can buy it by the yard at Kmart or Fabric Barn. The same felt goes by the name Kunin felt. It's about 2mm thick by eye, as thick as a nickel. But, I don't think the exact thickness is critical - my guess is that there is a lot of play in how much damping is required to render the woofer cone non-resonant. 6mm sounds like very thick felt - more than you need.
Hi Mamboni -
I resorted to consulting with a shopping expert ----- that being my spousal unit.
It took her almost 2 nanoseconds to say the crafts section at WalMart!
Go Figure
Parts should be here in about a week - located a local source for Sonotube - which was more difficult than I thought and I finally wound up calling Sonotube to get hold of a local distributer. The 14 inch size I want to use is not a common item. 12 inch and 16 inch are common tho -
Thomas
I resorted to consulting with a shopping expert ----- that being my spousal unit.
It took her almost 2 nanoseconds to say the crafts section at WalMart!
Go Figure
Parts should be here in about a week - located a local source for Sonotube - which was more difficult than I thought and I finally wound up calling Sonotube to get hold of a local distributer. The 14 inch size I want to use is not a common item. 12 inch and 16 inch are common tho -
Thomas
Mamboni,
I have always thought of them as a diffraction grating, but working with a vertical vector that is unusual in ordinary wave tank experiments, so, I had to modify my thinking just a bit.
We are both involved in this same process and using effectively the same tools, just arrayed differently and applied with different measures, same thoughts though. I am pretty sure that a combination of the two, along with treating both sides of the dome tweeter diaphragms with EnABL, will take your current 90% of the ohm model 5's performance and turn it into about 180%
I too wish I had some pictures of this earlier time in my life, especially one of Bill's face, the physicist friend, to show to you, when I asked him what he thought was going on.... a priceless memory I will carry to my grave.
Bud
I have always thought of them as a diffraction grating, but working with a vertical vector that is unusual in ordinary wave tank experiments, so, I had to modify my thinking just a bit.
We are both involved in this same process and using effectively the same tools, just arrayed differently and applied with different measures, same thoughts though. I am pretty sure that a combination of the two, along with treating both sides of the dome tweeter diaphragms with EnABL, will take your current 90% of the ohm model 5's performance and turn it into about 180%
I too wish I had some pictures of this earlier time in my life, especially one of Bill's face, the physicist friend, to show to you, when I asked him what he thought was going on.... a priceless memory I will carry to my grave.
Bud
EnABLE pattern?
BudP
I’ve been following this thread and am in the process of building the Mamboni speaker system -I’m still waiting on parts and time (just got back from vacation) to finish it. Correct me if I’m wrong--your idea is to stencil in rectangular patterns (EnABLE pattern) with some type of acrylic model paint using a calligraphy pen on or near the top and bottom of the speaker cone.
- Also, you stated that this process should be used on the cabinet itself. Where would you place it?
- Is there an EnABLE pattern straight line stencil for this?
- Are the triangles the same size no matter what size the drivers are?
- Would this work on a cylinder cabinet like the one mamboni used (post #32)
- Is the EnABLE pattern different for tweeters? What tweeters would this work on?
- Do you have stencil for the different sizes woofer?
- Would the constant movement of the cone over time make the acrylic come off?
- Would you be sharing more information on how to get and use the EnABLE pattern and what are the best speakers this process will work on?
- Do you have any pictures of pass projects that you could share?
You stated that you have a conventional system that easily outperforms the Ohm F in all categories. Could you explain more and share the plans on how to make them?
Thanks,
BudP
I’ve been following this thread and am in the process of building the Mamboni speaker system -I’m still waiting on parts and time (just got back from vacation) to finish it. Correct me if I’m wrong--your idea is to stencil in rectangular patterns (EnABLE pattern) with some type of acrylic model paint using a calligraphy pen on or near the top and bottom of the speaker cone.
- Also, you stated that this process should be used on the cabinet itself. Where would you place it?
- Is there an EnABLE pattern straight line stencil for this?
- Are the triangles the same size no matter what size the drivers are?
- Would this work on a cylinder cabinet like the one mamboni used (post #32)
- Is the EnABLE pattern different for tweeters? What tweeters would this work on?
- Do you have stencil for the different sizes woofer?
- Would the constant movement of the cone over time make the acrylic come off?
- Would you be sharing more information on how to get and use the EnABLE pattern and what are the best speakers this process will work on?
- Do you have any pictures of pass projects that you could share?
You stated that you have a conventional system that easily outperforms the Ohm F in all categories. Could you explain more and share the plans on how to make them?
Thanks,
Whew.....
R Jamm,
You have the general plan correct and the pens have been my only means of applying the EnABL process in the past.
c2cthomas and I are collaborating on a stenciling method to replace the pen applied method for many applications. These stencil's will be available, in some DIY usable fashion, pretty quickly. We have plans and methods and even media trials in the works. If we are successfull you will have stencils that are designed for whatever woofer you are going to use.
This is planned with the thought of using Mamboni's felt triangles on the inside of the cone. I am pretty certain that this combo will be ultimately superior to the EnABL process alone. When both sides of a cone are treated with EnABL the cone becomes very transparent to back wave signals, emitting right through the cone and into the listening area. The EnABL process enforces a phase and time coherent wave structure to emitted information and that sort of energy is very good at remaining coherent, regardless of obstructions.
Using the Mamboni process right where he uses it now will help eliminate that possibility and still provide the needed "infinite" cone edge termination to the back side of the driver that allows the EnABL process to completely control the front side information emissions.
Just like the EnABL pattern blocks the Mamboni triangles probably should increase and decrease with the size of the cone they are applied to. I do not know if Mamboni has a rigorous analysis of this size change and I am not at all sure how much change is correct. We will all find out as we go along. I would personally scale the triangles in size, up or down, from his proven concept size found on the 10" woofers he is advocating using.
I would place the linear patten of EnABL blocks down the length of the tube, on opposite sides with a vector between the opposite lines at right angles to the listening area. This will attach all information expression from the tubes to this plane and will likely provide you with the leading edge of the perceived sound field too. I do this with ordinary cabinets, placing the pattern lines vertically, in the middle of the front to back dimension of, and down, all four of the sides. This helps to eliminate the entire speaker system as a perceivable sound source and in my system the speakers are sonically invisible regardless of where you sit, just like Ohm F's are.
I have never had the pattern made with acrylic paint delaminate or shed. I have had the conformal coat acrylic delaminate from the polypropylene surface of the Dynavox woofers in two half round areas, one on each woofer and about a 1/4" diameter. The coating has not come off nor has it altered the sound. It just lifted enough to show at these two places. This is the only event like this I have witnessed and because of it I now "tooth" the surface of plastic cones with 1000 grit sandpaper before applying the pattern and conformal coating. I do not think this will be needed on any other cone, dome, flat ribbon or horn flare material.
All speakers are the best for EnABL use. The process does NOT alter the speakers inherent qualities. As far as engineering concerns go the speaker just acts more like a theoretically perfect model would. I have applied the process to every type of speaker made and find that, while all of them share a clarity of detail, a hugeness and coherence of projected sound field, and, an uncanny rendition of musical colors and musician imposed emphasis, some manufacturers provide products that are just more interesting than others. Vifa, peerless, dynavox, seas, morrel and many others manufacturers drivers have been treated.
From that sort of list, my current system uses:
a 9.375" dynavox polycone woofer with a huge voice coil and a dis-assemble-able basket structure, that allows treatment on both sides of the entire cone surface.
a 6" dia Vifa dome midrange, with the inner perforated metal dome removed, the backing plate holes cut to one hole, the size of the magnet structure pass through hole. A very small back chamber (.4 liter as opposed to the 1.6 liter suggested) made from an ABS pipe end cap, stuffed with long fiber natural cotton that also extends up through the center magnet hole to form a small dome, trapped by a large opening plastic wire mesh.
two Radio Shack/Linnaeum polycarbonate leaf tweeters
a single Pioneer piezo film, half of a can shaped super tweeter, with the fine mesh grill removed.
All of the drivers and their mounting plate surfaces on the visible side have been treated with both the EnABL pattern and conformal coat material. Except for the Pioneer driver all of them have also had the EnABL pattern and conformal coating applied to the backside of the drivers. The pattern is not noticeable unless you look very closely but the very shiny surface of the conformal coat is quite noticeable.
On the Linnaeum and Pioneer tweeters only the pattern areas have been coated with the conformal coating. The dynavox woofer has a VERY thick coating, at least 10 mils, of the conformal coating just to construct a semblance of a boundary layer that will interact with the surrounding air. Otherwise it would be very clear and very dead sounding. As of now it matches the "speed" of the rest of the drivers exactly.
The system is sort of flat from 33 Hz to what ever the cut off for the Pioneer is. I am not as concerned with fractional octave to octave flatness as I am with phase coherence at the crossover points of 800 Hz, 4 kHz and a 0.22 mfd induced slope for the Pioneer tweeter. The entire tweeter assembly is impedance matched through a transformer, the design and manufacture of that sort of audio device is my livelihood, with a 2.8 db cut in turns matching ratio.
I can post a finished picture if anyone is interested, but it is not really impressive, until you turn them on and hear an orchestra embedded 50 feet into the back wall and from edge to edge and floor to ceiling of the room, without any hint of Hi Fi sound characteristic and seemingly infinite detail. Very nice to listen to, so long as I am not experimenting with new audio transformers that are not fully charged, or new DIY Litz wire audio cables, or the eternally demented "electron traps" I have been applying to the ground sides of all of my components, since discovering their characteristics.
Bud
R Jamm,
You have the general plan correct and the pens have been my only means of applying the EnABL process in the past.
c2cthomas and I are collaborating on a stenciling method to replace the pen applied method for many applications. These stencil's will be available, in some DIY usable fashion, pretty quickly. We have plans and methods and even media trials in the works. If we are successfull you will have stencils that are designed for whatever woofer you are going to use.
This is planned with the thought of using Mamboni's felt triangles on the inside of the cone. I am pretty certain that this combo will be ultimately superior to the EnABL process alone. When both sides of a cone are treated with EnABL the cone becomes very transparent to back wave signals, emitting right through the cone and into the listening area. The EnABL process enforces a phase and time coherent wave structure to emitted information and that sort of energy is very good at remaining coherent, regardless of obstructions.
Using the Mamboni process right where he uses it now will help eliminate that possibility and still provide the needed "infinite" cone edge termination to the back side of the driver that allows the EnABL process to completely control the front side information emissions.
Just like the EnABL pattern blocks the Mamboni triangles probably should increase and decrease with the size of the cone they are applied to. I do not know if Mamboni has a rigorous analysis of this size change and I am not at all sure how much change is correct. We will all find out as we go along. I would personally scale the triangles in size, up or down, from his proven concept size found on the 10" woofers he is advocating using.
I would place the linear patten of EnABL blocks down the length of the tube, on opposite sides with a vector between the opposite lines at right angles to the listening area. This will attach all information expression from the tubes to this plane and will likely provide you with the leading edge of the perceived sound field too. I do this with ordinary cabinets, placing the pattern lines vertically, in the middle of the front to back dimension of, and down, all four of the sides. This helps to eliminate the entire speaker system as a perceivable sound source and in my system the speakers are sonically invisible regardless of where you sit, just like Ohm F's are.
I have never had the pattern made with acrylic paint delaminate or shed. I have had the conformal coat acrylic delaminate from the polypropylene surface of the Dynavox woofers in two half round areas, one on each woofer and about a 1/4" diameter. The coating has not come off nor has it altered the sound. It just lifted enough to show at these two places. This is the only event like this I have witnessed and because of it I now "tooth" the surface of plastic cones with 1000 grit sandpaper before applying the pattern and conformal coating. I do not think this will be needed on any other cone, dome, flat ribbon or horn flare material.
All speakers are the best for EnABL use. The process does NOT alter the speakers inherent qualities. As far as engineering concerns go the speaker just acts more like a theoretically perfect model would. I have applied the process to every type of speaker made and find that, while all of them share a clarity of detail, a hugeness and coherence of projected sound field, and, an uncanny rendition of musical colors and musician imposed emphasis, some manufacturers provide products that are just more interesting than others. Vifa, peerless, dynavox, seas, morrel and many others manufacturers drivers have been treated.
From that sort of list, my current system uses:
a 9.375" dynavox polycone woofer with a huge voice coil and a dis-assemble-able basket structure, that allows treatment on both sides of the entire cone surface.
a 6" dia Vifa dome midrange, with the inner perforated metal dome removed, the backing plate holes cut to one hole, the size of the magnet structure pass through hole. A very small back chamber (.4 liter as opposed to the 1.6 liter suggested) made from an ABS pipe end cap, stuffed with long fiber natural cotton that also extends up through the center magnet hole to form a small dome, trapped by a large opening plastic wire mesh.
two Radio Shack/Linnaeum polycarbonate leaf tweeters
a single Pioneer piezo film, half of a can shaped super tweeter, with the fine mesh grill removed.
All of the drivers and their mounting plate surfaces on the visible side have been treated with both the EnABL pattern and conformal coat material. Except for the Pioneer driver all of them have also had the EnABL pattern and conformal coating applied to the backside of the drivers. The pattern is not noticeable unless you look very closely but the very shiny surface of the conformal coat is quite noticeable.
On the Linnaeum and Pioneer tweeters only the pattern areas have been coated with the conformal coating. The dynavox woofer has a VERY thick coating, at least 10 mils, of the conformal coating just to construct a semblance of a boundary layer that will interact with the surrounding air. Otherwise it would be very clear and very dead sounding. As of now it matches the "speed" of the rest of the drivers exactly.
The system is sort of flat from 33 Hz to what ever the cut off for the Pioneer is. I am not as concerned with fractional octave to octave flatness as I am with phase coherence at the crossover points of 800 Hz, 4 kHz and a 0.22 mfd induced slope for the Pioneer tweeter. The entire tweeter assembly is impedance matched through a transformer, the design and manufacture of that sort of audio device is my livelihood, with a 2.8 db cut in turns matching ratio.
I can post a finished picture if anyone is interested, but it is not really impressive, until you turn them on and hear an orchestra embedded 50 feet into the back wall and from edge to edge and floor to ceiling of the room, without any hint of Hi Fi sound characteristic and seemingly infinite detail. Very nice to listen to, so long as I am not experimenting with new audio transformers that are not fully charged, or new DIY Litz wire audio cables, or the eternally demented "electron traps" I have been applying to the ground sides of all of my components, since discovering their characteristics.
Bud
R Jamm
I have my materials on order and slated to arrive next week - around 2 April. I'm using Heil AMT2 tweeters so my construction is going to be a bit different than the original mamboni design. I'm also aiming at a tweeter height of 36 inches so I have switched to 14" Sonotube with a 28 inch height. This was discussed in some earlier threads. Because Sonotube comes in 12 ft. lengths I'm going to have enough for 4 tubes to play around with - as well as an extra Pioneer speaker. I'll be trying a few different test configurations - one original speaker via mamboni method - but using the Heil tweeter - perhaps to be replaced by a B&G NEO 8 at a later date. I'll try the B&G because people can still purchase that tweeter for a reasonable cost and the Heils can only be had by ordering them from Germany - at around $600.00 each. On the base units I'm going to make one as specified by mamboni and stuff it to around 50% with acoustastuff. Another one I want to try is what the Sonotube sub-woofer builders do with some dampening of the walls with auto-body undercoat and batting around the inside of the tube plus some acoustastuff - filled to taste. The 1st Pioneer 10 inch unit will receive the mamboni treatment only and the second will be a combo of mamboni triangles on the inside of the cone and Bud P's EnABL pattern on the cone outside (rear of the speaker - basket side) both on the top near the VC and on the bottom near the surround. I'm also considering an EnABLE pattern around the circumference of the Pioneer's baffle but I need to consult with BudP on this as it places the pattern in the horizontal plane and I'm not sure if that will lead to problems or not. But what the heck - it's an extra tube and it might be fun to try it out just for the fun of it.
I have some material on order that BudP and I want to try out before we report on it. I don't mean to be keeping anything a big secret
- I'm just trying to keep from getting people all hot and bothered over something that might not work out. BudP's method is proven to work - as long as you have good eyes and steady hands. At my age I'm afraid that neither my eyesight or steadiness of hand are what they used to be - so I'm motivated to develop an easy to do method - if possible. Seeing as how we are both starting a build let's keep in touch with ideas and problems.
BTW - cash spent to date (not including tax or shipping) around $185.00 for two speakers. Still need to get some minor stuff - so looks like I'll be into around $200.00 or so -
and yes - I will post progress photo's and listening impressions.
Cheers
I have my materials on order and slated to arrive next week - around 2 April. I'm using Heil AMT2 tweeters so my construction is going to be a bit different than the original mamboni design. I'm also aiming at a tweeter height of 36 inches so I have switched to 14" Sonotube with a 28 inch height. This was discussed in some earlier threads. Because Sonotube comes in 12 ft. lengths I'm going to have enough for 4 tubes to play around with - as well as an extra Pioneer speaker. I'll be trying a few different test configurations - one original speaker via mamboni method - but using the Heil tweeter - perhaps to be replaced by a B&G NEO 8 at a later date. I'll try the B&G because people can still purchase that tweeter for a reasonable cost and the Heils can only be had by ordering them from Germany - at around $600.00 each. On the base units I'm going to make one as specified by mamboni and stuff it to around 50% with acoustastuff. Another one I want to try is what the Sonotube sub-woofer builders do with some dampening of the walls with auto-body undercoat and batting around the inside of the tube plus some acoustastuff - filled to taste. The 1st Pioneer 10 inch unit will receive the mamboni treatment only and the second will be a combo of mamboni triangles on the inside of the cone and Bud P's EnABL pattern on the cone outside (rear of the speaker - basket side) both on the top near the VC and on the bottom near the surround. I'm also considering an EnABLE pattern around the circumference of the Pioneer's baffle but I need to consult with BudP on this as it places the pattern in the horizontal plane and I'm not sure if that will lead to problems or not. But what the heck - it's an extra tube and it might be fun to try it out just for the fun of it.
I have some material on order that BudP and I want to try out before we report on it. I don't mean to be keeping anything a big secret
- I'm just trying to keep from getting people all hot and bothered over something that might not work out. BudP's method is proven to work - as long as you have good eyes and steady hands. At my age I'm afraid that neither my eyesight or steadiness of hand are what they used to be - so I'm motivated to develop an easy to do method - if possible. Seeing as how we are both starting a build let's keep in touch with ideas and problems.BTW - cash spent to date (not including tax or shipping) around $185.00 for two speakers. Still need to get some minor stuff - so looks like I'll be into around $200.00 or so -
and yes - I will post progress photo's and listening impressions.
Cheers
Most of my parts have arrived (but not all) and the 1st hunk of Sonotube has been cut. Pioneer 10 inch speakers are here and getting ready for the mamboni treatment.
Did a bit of a "dry fit" to check size of units - looks good for my target tweeter height of 36 inches plus or minus.
Photo of "ruff" dry fit.
Did a bit of a "dry fit" to check size of units - looks good for my target tweeter height of 36 inches plus or minus.
Photo of "ruff" dry fit.
C2Cthomas,
We're waiting...........
I have attached a pic of how to treat a typical Walsh dome style tweeter and deflection plate with the EnABL process. Had to go digging in really old patent papers to find it too....
Mamboni
Our processes are being talked over, in another thread, quite unrelated to this one and by one of the most famous of all DIY proponents.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98969
We should join in and drag ole Thomas himself with us.
Bud
We're waiting...........
I have attached a pic of how to treat a typical Walsh dome style tweeter and deflection plate with the EnABL process. Had to go digging in really old patent papers to find it too....
Mamboni
Our processes are being talked over, in another thread, quite unrelated to this one and by one of the most famous of all DIY proponents.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=98969
We should join in and drag ole Thomas himself with us.
Bud
c2cthomas said:Most of my parts have arrived (but not all) and the 1st hunk of Sonotube has been cut. Pioneer 10 inch speakers are here and getting ready for the mamboni treatment.
Did a bit of a "dry fit" to check size of units - looks good for my target tweeter height of 36 inches plus or minus.
Photo of "ruff" dry fit.
Thomas:
Even as mockups, I love the look! the squat wide tube with the inverted woofer, tall ribbon tweeter and wide baffles gives it an avante garde look, like "Krell Loudspeakers" from outer space. Have you done any listening?
Hi Mamboni and BudP - and everyone else!
The "wide baffle" was just some scrap wood on which to place the Pioneer 10 inch for the 1st dry fit for sizing. The actual speaker will look like your Walsh 5 remakes - except that mine will have the Heil tweeter (in this version).
I'm cutting up felt for your Mamboni pattern right after I finish this post. BTW I'm using bright red felt so it shows up better in the assembly photo's - and I am taking photo's as I go. 
I did happen to see a certain distinguished person mention BudP's EnABL pattern in another thread - Yea for BudP!
Oh BudP - I have a copy of your patent on hand - and I'm moving at a deliberate and careful speed - remember - this is my 1st DIY speaker effort -
Gotta go "Mamboin" some speakers.:
The "wide baffle" was just some scrap wood on which to place the Pioneer 10 inch for the 1st dry fit for sizing. The actual speaker will look like your Walsh 5 remakes - except that mine will have the Heil tweeter (in this version).
I'm cutting up felt for your Mamboni pattern right after I finish this post. BTW I'm using bright red felt
so it shows up better in the assembly photo's - and I am taking photo's as I go. I did happen to see a certain distinguished person mention BudP's EnABL pattern in another thread - Yea for BudP!
Oh BudP - I have a copy of your patent on hand - and I'm moving at a deliberate and careful speed - remember - this is my 1st DIY speaker effort -
Gotta go "Mamboin" some speakers.
:
Did not get as far as I wanted last night - it took a while to measure the Pioneer and determine the placement of the Mamboni triangles. For those interested - I measured on the inside of the mounting bracket circumference and came up with 6 centimeters for triangle centers on this make and model of particular speaker. I have applied the triangles as per the Mamboni design. I have some other ideas as to size and placement - but the good Doctor M has already played with several versions of his design so I'm not going to screw around at this point. Things are already complex enough with the combination of the Mamboni design and the next unit which will use this as well as BudP's EnABL pattern on the "backside" of the speaker cone. Of course because we are using a Walsh type of transducer the "backside" winds up being used as the "radiating side" when assembled - so when I say "backside" I am referring to the cone surface facing the speaker basket. 
Going to dissect the speaker dome today after running my spousal unit to Huntsville. So the bad news is that I'll be gone for several hours. The good news is that I'll be alone and free to "play" all I want for a couple of days.
Photo of last nights progress - the second speaker should take much less time to do now that I have gone through the learning curve.
Going to dissect the speaker dome today after running my spousal unit to Huntsville. So the bad news is that I'll be gone for several hours. The good news is that I'll be alone and free to "play" all I want for a couple of days.
Photo of last nights progress - the second speaker should take much less time to do now that I have gone through the learning curve.
photo of how I made my measurements for the Mamboni triangles. Using inches came out sort of odd so I switched over to cm/mm's and it works out nicely at 6 cm per division. I considered using an odd number of triangles so I could tell my friends that I have and "odd" speaker - and then watch their eyes glaze over as I explained just exactly why! 
BTW - use of a cloth type tape works well for this measurement. My trusty Stanly 25 ft. metal tape I use around the house just didn't get the job done - no cm's on it!!
BTW - use of a cloth type tape works well for this measurement. My trusty Stanly 25 ft. metal tape I use around the house just didn't get the job done - no cm's on it!!