Yet another "Best Loudspeaker" comercial design.. - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Loudspeakers > Multi-Way

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 16th April 2007, 09:11 PM   #1
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: US
Default Yet another "Best Loudspeaker" comercial design..

.. a lot of manufactures have *almost* made this claim, but here is one that actually DOES make this truly absurd claim:

http://www.ygacoustics.com/

(Note: Look at any recent issue of stereophile with this manufacturer's advertisement - the exact quote is: "The best loudspeaker on Earth. Period." It does however encompass the loudspeaker under review plus the extra subs.)

And here is the review that sparked this post:

http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/y...ain_module.htm

So I thought I'd pick this WAY overpriced design apart.

Well first the manufacturer bases his claim on superior measured performance:

"In Yoavís mind, the best speaker is the most accurate -- the one that colors the signal the least."

"Furthermore, Yoav believes that to arrive at this ideal is it imperative not just to rely on measurements but to live by them."

"Yoav believes that if you know what youíre measuring and youíre doing your measurements properly, then you can have objective data that tells you everything you need to know about designing speakers. Yes, everything."

"In terms of those measurements, what Yoav wants to see is flat-as-a-pancake on-axis frequency response, exceptionally controlled dispersion, and, perhaps trickiest of all, perfect driver-to-driver phase relationships at all frequencies."

"Yoav claims +/-0.7dB deviation from the upper bass to 20kHz (because this is a smallish speaker, deep bass is missing), and with less than 0.2dB difference from speaker to speaker."



..and fortunately soundstage does some modest measuring to peruse:

http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/mea...f_main_module/

First thing to note is the price.. Just how much does it cost for a solid baffle of titanium and a milled box of aluminum? Don't know, but it can't be cheap. By comparison the drivers are FAR less expensive (though certainly not inexpensive), and crossover components are not mentioned as being "exotic" like duelands (which would drive the price insanely high for 4th order design). Still, figuring a dealer markup of about 50 percent, 14 grand seems more than a little pricey irrespective of quality for such a "small" bandwidth limited monitor loudspeaker.

The next thing to look at is freq. linearity:

First thing I look to is the lower to mid midrange (80Hz to 400 Hz) at 2 meters (measured)..

Its quite flat, and it most certainly has about 6.5 db of baffle step compensation. Thats very good.

Next we look at that linearity deviation around 500-700 Hz. From a low value to a peak value (depending on the horizontal axis), there is a maximum deviation of 3 db (or +/-1.5 db). Well this certainly isn't as claimed in the review (+/-.7 db) - BUT it is a vary narrow passband and might only be excited with a few recordings.

Then we look at the top band to see horizontal near off-axis response.

From about 9 kHz it isn't good. Even at a marginal 30 degrees off-axis its down about 12 db. Looking at Chart 2's in room measurement averaged over 15 degrees, (which is p!ss little), the response is down at least 3 db at 15 kHz. Yes, this will result in a loss of what is commonly referred to as "air", BUT only for those that can hear it.

In a similar "vein", (but somewhat more sophisticated analysis), next we should look at the averaged in-room response at other freq.s specifically looking for a deviation in linearity. Again looking at Chart 2, notice that there is about a -1.5 db "trough" centered at 1.5 kHz. That WILL be audible, but not necessarily problematic for most. In FACT it could be argued (and has) that this is an enviable trait (BBC compensation curve #2). HOWEVER, take a look at what the speaker is like horizontally off-axis at 45, 60, and 75 degrees. In reality the 15 degree in room average just isn't "cutting it", and it will result in a further depression in this freq. region. Just how much is unknown, but my guess is that you can add at least another db or two to the figure when averaging over 30 degrees. Frankly, at a minimum I'd like to see it averaged 45 degrees (..note that we hear in time and spl VERY accurately just above 1.5 kHz, all of which means that we hear VERY well far off-axis horizontally near this passband).

..And finally (with respect to freq. linearity), note that the response off-axis horizontally at 45 degrees or more results in a fairly "downward" sloping response higher in freq.. While the in-room average has already been discussed, we next need to consider "image" skew as it relates to the in-room average. OK.. just what the hell is "image skew"? Image skew is a shifting of image placement depending on the on and off-axis horizontal response of the loudspeaker from about 1 kHz to about 9 kHz. Now, provided the listener is centered between the loudspeakers, it generally isn't something you would perceive as a "skewing" of the image. Its probable though that you would hear it in another function - soundstage size (to an extent), and imaging within and beyond the boundaries of the loudspeakers. Note that the way this loudspeaker is designed, flat on-axis and with a "falling" response off axis as freq.s increase in this 1-9 kHz region, that at best you will only have imaging *to* the speakers themselves, NOT beyond their boundaries. While this is a recording dependent phenomena, some *normal* recordings will have imaging outside the boundaries of the speakers when properly reproduced. (..note that this is different than phase shifting image placement in the "mid" midrange from processing like "Q" sound, etc. - which can also achieve the same effect.) Additionally, the soundstage will be reduced in width, significantly so, and will likely only extend marginally past the imaging boundary limits of the speakers. (Note though that ultra low freq. sound effects the soundstage dimensions even more, though its a moot point here because the speaker as reviewed isn't designed for this.)

Now we would ordinarily start looking at linear distortion relating to time - i.e. cumulative spectral decay. Unfortunately the publication has nothing on this. (..and its VERY important, but not necessarily as you might think HOW its important. Yeah, thats a cryptic statement, but it would take a while to explain, and again we don't have any measurements here for this loudspeaker.)

Next lets take a look at phase, not as it relates to freq. or time, but just phase itself. There is a 90 degree phase rotation from 1.2 kHz to 2.2 kHz. Call me nutty, but this does not come anywhere close to "perfect driver-to-driver phase relationships at all frequencies". Of course the designer could have been referencing phase as it relates to freq. linearity.. so who knows? Anyway, altering phase in this manner usually imparts a more forward character to imaging and soundstage dimensions, a slightly more "dynamic"/"energetic"/"lively"/"hyped" sound. (..Strangely though, a good waveguide/horn loaded driver often has the same "hyped" sound as a phase "challenged" loudspeaker in this passband.) Conversely, a speaker with less phase rotation in this region can sometimes sound more "distant" and "natural". All things considered, I'd expect this loudspeaker to be a bit more "forward" than absolute neutrality would suggest. (Note that the phase rotation at the lower mid to upper midbass, while "non-linear" is similar to what all loudspeakers experience and as such is almost certainly off-set for in any given recording - because its mastered on loudspeakers with a similar rotation.) The impedance peak at 70 Hz is the in-box resonance of the drivers. They won't behave in a linear manner here, but in truth the passband is very narrow for this non-linear behavior (60-80 Hz). On the other hand this is in the upper bass and as such IS in the "fundamental" range - and will (to some degree) be audible on most recordings.

Finally (in this "linear" look at performance), lets look at impedance. Specifically again in the 1 kHz region. Obviously no zobel filters were applied. While this may make no difference for an amplifier with a very low output impedance amplifier, it most certainly WILL make a difference for amplifers with higher output impedances. That really, is more of a cautionary tale for users though, not really a limitation in base performance.

After all that we should REALLY take a look at NON-Linear behavior:

Looking at both charts of Chart 3..

Umm, there is more than 1% distortion at 450 Hz and 7 kHz at a distance of 2 meters. THATS NOT EVEN GOOD. Worse, with not much more input power at the same distance results in more than 5% distortion in those problem areas. (..that is IF I'm reading their charts correctly, If however you divide the value in half it still has some problems at higher input levels..) Now I'll be the first to proclaim that while non-linear distortion IS audible with a test tone, it generally isn't "noticeable" with music - even at these levels (depending on the order of that distortion). HOWEVER, this dude is staking his reputation on measured performance making the absurd claim of "the best loudspeaker on Earth", and frankly there are several DIY designs that are a LOT better than this (..and cost a whole hell of a lot less).

Well, are the loudspeakers worth their price? I certainly don't think so, BUT it is a question of value and thats more than a little subjective - so what do you think?
__________________
perspective is everything
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 09:25 PM   #2
Tenson is offline Tenson  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kent
At least they are better than the other best loudspeakers in the world.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 09:31 PM   #3
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: US
Quote:
Originally posted by Tenson
At least they are better than the other best loudspeakers in the world.



..are you talking about that joke of a loudspeaker using a cheap car coaxial loudspeaker?
__________________
perspective is everything
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 10:40 PM   #4
diyAudio Member
 
Cloth Ears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
(Scott, not intended as a serious rebuttal, but an interested query, if you may...)

I dunno what you're complaining about. Compared to Wilson Audio (anythings), Karmas or Lumenwhites, they measure ruler flat... And, if they're the actual measurements (not 1/3-octave averaged or whatever) then they would be the flattest I've ever seen.

Not saying that they would be my cup of tea, but from the review, they sound as if they're fairly accurate in soundstaging and neutral in tone. Without having heard them I couldn't comment any more.

Why the rant? Are you offended by 5-figure prices for speakers? There are many more that are much higher priced, and that don't seem to come even close to these in terms of 'accuracy' (take that term for what you may...).

Possibly the makers advertising spiel? They come a lot closer than "perfect sound forever", and they have left themselves open to the sort of criticism that is being levelled here. So I say good on 'em! I'd be interested in seeing any published set of measurements that are better though. And I would be interested in hearing them anyway.
__________________
Jont.
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 11:10 PM   #5
phn is offline phn  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
phn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
It's the second time a post this within a short period. I am NOT plugging them or the manufacturer. Where's my interest in that? The "I'd be interested in seeing any published set of measurements that are better though" motivated me. I have too limited knowledge and there are too many graphs for me to say which one is better. But this is pretty damn good:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...01/index6.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 11:12 PM   #6
Tenson is offline Tenson  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Kent
Itís a silly claim and no one should make it. They do measure very well though, apart from that THD+N that is average at best. But then again it was at 2m and itís a small speaker. The fast falling off-axis above 9KHz is an issue IMO but others would claim it helps control overly live rooms.
  Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2007, 11:40 PM   #7
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
diyAudio Member
 
soongsc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Taiwan
Hmm, I think someone is selling these here. Might go to listen to them.
__________________
Hear the real thing!
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2007, 12:49 AM   #8
diyAudio Member
 
Cloth Ears's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Quote:
Originally posted by phn
It's the second time a post this within a short period. I am NOT plugging them or the manufacturer. Where's my interest in that? The "I'd be interested in seeing any published set of measurements that are better though" motivated me. I have too limited knowledge and there are too many graphs for me to say which one is better. But this is pretty damn good:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloud...01/index6.html
Hi phn,

I overlaid the 2 (ignore the scale on the side, it's not correct for both) after adjusting for size. The Stereophile one is in blue. It has more lively 'peaks' and 'dips' - but as I said in my previous post, I'm not sure if the measurements have been smoothed for the "Best Loudspeaker". I know they have been 'adjusted' in the Stereophile, but I don't think JA smooths them very much...

Tenson, it is a silly claim. But I don't think that the THD+N is average. Check the latest Quads (in Stereophile, I think) for amazing claims against incredible distortion...
Attached Images
File Type: jpg untitled.jpg (14.4 KB, 704 views)
__________________
Jont.
"It is impossible to build a fool proof system; because fools are so ingenious."
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2007, 01:50 AM   #9
holdent is offline holdent  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ontario
I'm a huge fan of measurements but think they only tell half of the story. The Quad ESL-989s and Wilson Maxx2 speakers are the two best speakers I've ever heard but they don't measure well. The Quad's high frequency response drops off very quickly (particularly only slightly off-axis), and the Wilson's have have a fairly big hole in the midrange which wasn't noticeable to me. John Atkinson of Stereophile concluded his measurements of the Quad by saying
Quote:
All I can say is that the reasons for this speaker's undoubtedly superb sound quality are not readily apparent from its measurements
.

The same measurement issue occurs with all other audio products. Consider the tube amp compared to a transistor-based amp...
  Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2007, 02:28 AM   #10
AJinFLA is offline AJinFLA  United States
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Tampa
Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Dainty" loudspeaker parameters. ashok Multi-Way 24 26th December 2012 05:48 PM
"compact loudspeaker factory visit from "magico mini" thread Nanook Multi-Way 2 4th January 2008 07:30 AM
what makes a loudspeaker "full range"? kneadle Full Range 25 15th April 2005 07:53 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:51 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2