Kinku, keep in mind that while the two enclosures involved share the same design DNA, (Scott / Dave) they're not the same topology - FHXLs ( rear mouth tapped hypex horn isn't it?) for the 10P, and SuperPensils ) MLTL) for the 12s. I'd certainly expect that to add different spice notes to the sound stage / depth, but how much it might influence the area of your interest would be "informed conjecture" 
so in other words, how we're each able to describe what we think we hear might not answer your questions
so in other words, how we're each able to describe what we think we hear might not answer your questions
how's this weekend sound? - might have to be Sunday though, our dance card's rather full for tomorrow, I think
I think Sunday will work. Apparently, the wife's got a function to attend, so the house will be quiet.
jeff
Sitting here half-way though three fingers of GLenFiddich, let me take one more shot:
Describe the difference between a lute and a guitar. Which sounds better?
Describe the difference between a metal-strung violin and a gut-strung violin. Which sounds better? Add a viola d'more to the mix.
Bob
Describe the difference between a lute and a guitar. Which sounds better?
Describe the difference between a metal-strung violin and a gut-strung violin. Which sounds better? Add a viola d'more to the mix.
Bob
Bob sorry,I got your point now. Thank you for this wonderful explanation. Jeff and Chris I will await your posts after this weekend experiments.Thank you so much. I am sure may are awaiting your results. Like all of you are trying to tell me,it may not be the actual results I am waiting for .But at least you can play the same music through both speakers , at same room and come up with some tonal qualities perhaps.
Hi Chaps,
Bob's points do much to illustrate the design and build challenge each driver-designer faces. There will never be a "one driver pleases all" unit, its physically impossible to do so.
However, there are new design concepts that I'll be discussing this weekend while in British Columbia that might lend more future end user choice:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/240918-marks-canada-usa-sept-travel-dates-3.html
Cheers
Mark.
Bob's points do much to illustrate the design and build challenge each driver-designer faces. There will never be a "one driver pleases all" unit, its physically impossible to do so.
However, there are new design concepts that I'll be discussing this weekend while in British Columbia that might lend more future end user choice:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/markaudio/240918-marks-canada-usa-sept-travel-dates-3.html
Cheers
Mark.
Hi Mark , nice to hear from you. I was wondering what was your expectations when you were developing A10 and A12, or let me say advantage of A12 over A10. I am asking about the ideal situation where drivers are in free space and not in a 2pie space, as in a box of any type. I never read anywhere a comparison of raw drivers the strength and weaknesses of one over the other without any enclosures. May be you can help since you are the authority on them.
well that chrisb guy sure painted himself into a corner, so let's see how artfully he can escape
After a delightful, but far too short visit with Mr Alpair himself yesterday, in which this subject was broached, I spent the best part of today listening to several combinations of Alpair systems and amps, both at my own place, and Jeff's.
Just to make things simpler, there were a total of 5 pairs of drivers in 3 different enclosures, as well as 3 different amps and 4 sources involved - lots of combinations
speakers:
my place:
- MAOP7s in FH3
- Alpair 10P stock in FHXL
Jeff's:
- Alpair 10P EnABLed in FHXL
- Alpair 12P stock in SuperPensil
- Alpair 12P EnABLed in MarKen12T
amps:
my place
- DIY 6CA7 SE triode wired (Shuguang Black Treasures)
- Tubelab EL84 P/P pentode wired
Jeff:
- Jolida 302 - triode wired ( Russian something or other outputs)
Sources:
my place:
- Jolida CD player / Citypulse DAC
- Rega P3 / AudioNote MM cartridge / DIY tube phono
Jeffs:
- DVD player (Jeff - brand = ?)
- turntable (even more embarrassed that I can't remember)
Conclusions?
I can't imagine being satisfied long term with the 12Ps in anything smaller than a Pensil or similar full size MLTL, or the big-a$$ Avebury rear mouth horns. Sorry, Dave - I love the A7s and EL70s in that style.
The MAOPs are a difficult driver to describe - I guess neutral is part of it, but they are very unforgiving of program material quality and associated equipment. The higher powered pentode amp was hard hard to endure - while the more forward dynamic placement of front of soundstage is easy to adapt to, they had a hard strident leading edge and dryness that was quickly fatiguing. The SE amp was much more relaxing and musically "right".
The soundstage presentation of the FHXL and Pensils are so different that it wasn't really an apples to apples comparison - either size of the rear mouthed FH enclosures throw a much wider, spacious stage behind the "back wall" than do the Pensils, and certainly the little stand mounted MarKenTs.
I jumped on board the EnABL bandwagon quite early, and am still enjoying the ride, if not the occasional flare-up of polemics. Suffice it to say that I preferred the treated to stock drivers in the FHXL by a substantial margin.
There's some very clear audience sounds and low in the mix musician's chatter and too close the mike compression in Patricia Barber's "Companion", that I've never heard quite so distinctly in the hundreds of times I've listened to the disc. They're just not there with the same dimensionality or "dark space" surrounding them with either size of the stock drivers. Yeah, I know that's pretty flaky audiophile mumbo jumbo, but it's what I heard.
As for a conclusive "verdict" on 10P vs 12P - that's just not possible for me at this time - Jeff will probably swap the treated 12s drivers into the Pensils, then it'll be a more valid comparison - well except for the enclosures....
If I had the time and financial wherewithal to build at least one of every possibly comparable design for all the drivers I'd like to taste, I'm still not sure I'd be able to find "the perfect one" - same for amps too, really
well, still stuck in the corner, but just let the paint dry a little longer and at least I won't track much mess around (sure glad I took a pee break first)
After a delightful, but far too short visit with Mr Alpair himself yesterday, in which this subject was broached, I spent the best part of today listening to several combinations of Alpair systems and amps, both at my own place, and Jeff's.
Just to make things simpler, there were a total of 5 pairs of drivers in 3 different enclosures, as well as 3 different amps and 4 sources involved - lots of combinations
speakers:
my place:
- MAOP7s in FH3
- Alpair 10P stock in FHXL
Jeff's:
- Alpair 10P EnABLed in FHXL
- Alpair 12P stock in SuperPensil
- Alpair 12P EnABLed in MarKen12T
amps:
my place
- DIY 6CA7 SE triode wired (Shuguang Black Treasures)
- Tubelab EL84 P/P pentode wired
Jeff:
- Jolida 302 - triode wired ( Russian something or other outputs)
Sources:
my place:
- Jolida CD player / Citypulse DAC
- Rega P3 / AudioNote MM cartridge / DIY tube phono
Jeffs:
- DVD player (Jeff - brand = ?)
- turntable (even more embarrassed that I can't remember)
Conclusions?
I can't imagine being satisfied long term with the 12Ps in anything smaller than a Pensil or similar full size MLTL, or the big-a$$ Avebury rear mouth horns. Sorry, Dave - I love the A7s and EL70s in that style.
The MAOPs are a difficult driver to describe - I guess neutral is part of it, but they are very unforgiving of program material quality and associated equipment. The higher powered pentode amp was hard hard to endure - while the more forward dynamic placement of front of soundstage is easy to adapt to, they had a hard strident leading edge and dryness that was quickly fatiguing. The SE amp was much more relaxing and musically "right".
The soundstage presentation of the FHXL and Pensils are so different that it wasn't really an apples to apples comparison - either size of the rear mouthed FH enclosures throw a much wider, spacious stage behind the "back wall" than do the Pensils, and certainly the little stand mounted MarKenTs.
I jumped on board the EnABL bandwagon quite early, and am still enjoying the ride, if not the occasional flare-up of polemics. Suffice it to say that I preferred the treated to stock drivers in the FHXL by a substantial margin.
There's some very clear audience sounds and low in the mix musician's chatter and too close the mike compression in Patricia Barber's "Companion", that I've never heard quite so distinctly in the hundreds of times I've listened to the disc. They're just not there with the same dimensionality or "dark space" surrounding them with either size of the stock drivers. Yeah, I know that's pretty flaky audiophile mumbo jumbo, but it's what I heard.
As for a conclusive "verdict" on 10P vs 12P - that's just not possible for me at this time - Jeff will probably swap the treated 12s drivers into the Pensils, then it'll be a more valid comparison - well except for the enclosures....
If I had the time and financial wherewithal to build at least one of every possibly comparable design for all the drivers I'd like to taste, I'm still not sure I'd be able to find "the perfect one" - same for amps too, really
well, still stuck in the corner, but just let the paint dry a little longer and at least I won't track much mess around (sure glad I took a pee break first)
Chrisb,
Again, top marks on your Houdini act...
Though I have not listened to the A10P, I can relate to the deeper soundstage of the FH design; few weeks back I had my FH3 playing with Mark's Gen 1 CHP-70 - the soundstage was indeed deeper (to my ears) and a bit wider vs other designs I have my FR drivers in (including larger ones). This lead to the feeling of a more "layered" sound and an enjoyable listening experience overall. I feel much inclined towards trying out the FH XL, but the 504mm depth of the cabinet is a concern... plus would need to buy a set of A10P and get them through the break in process...
Let's see what Jeff has to share.
Again, top marks on your Houdini act...
Though I have not listened to the A10P, I can relate to the deeper soundstage of the FH design; few weeks back I had my FH3 playing with Mark's Gen 1 CHP-70 - the soundstage was indeed deeper (to my ears) and a bit wider vs other designs I have my FR drivers in (including larger ones). This lead to the feeling of a more "layered" sound and an enjoyable listening experience overall. I feel much inclined towards trying out the FH XL, but the 504mm depth of the cabinet is a concern... plus would need to buy a set of A10P and get them through the break in process...
Let's see what Jeff has to share.
Zia - there is a Pensil for the 10P -different enough from the "optimal" alignment for the metals that I'd suggest avoiding assessing performance in a direct drop in to existing enclosures for 10.2 or 10.3. Using "standard" 18mm - 3/4" ( 19mm) material the Pensil 10P's footprint is 241mm W x 318mm D
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
I must resist the temptation to build those too
http://frugal-phile.com/boxlib/pensils/Pensil10p-plan-140613.pdf
I must resist the temptation to build those too
Last edited:
6P3S-E's in the 302b. Old Panasonic DVD player, not awful, and not the last word in resolution either. Technics SL1200M3D/AT33PTG/Hag.Piccolo/Pass Pearl phono, standing in for the old "fruit box", while it undergoes some repairs.
Yes, that sums up the basic character of the FHXL's. They have an "easy going" laid back kind of quality to them, with very good bandwidth, top to bottom. They don't have the dynamic impact of the 12p Super Pencils. Putting the 10p's in a Pencil or MarKen box could change that somewhat, but that's just a guess. They are a very nice driver regardless.
jeff
fruit box - would that be LP12? - certainly higher maintenance to keep in top running form (even without surfing the curl of upgrades) than the Technics or a Planar 3.
yup, the Pensil 12Ps do not lack grunt, but still have finesse to spare in the upper mids to top - still yet this is apples to oranges
orange you glad I didn't say banana?
yup, the Pensil 12Ps do not lack grunt, but still have finesse to spare in the upper mids to top - still yet this is apples to oranges
orange you glad I didn't say banana?
I've been reading into building a pair of enclosures for an Alpair 12P which will be driven by my Firstwatt F5 or Bottlehead SEX 2.1. Seems like most are recommending the pencil enclosures to get the best recency response from these drivers. I have a nice standalone Sub I can throw in if needed but I would prefer to keep this a simple system.
Does anyone have the plans for the pencil enclosures best suited to work with the 12P drivers? I plan to build them from .5" birch or bamboo ply. Looking forward to a fun build!
Does anyone have the plans for the pencil enclosures best suited to work with the 12P drivers? I plan to build them from .5" birch or bamboo ply. Looking forward to a fun build!
i went with the standard Pencil/12P. I don't have a huge room to fill and secondly, Scott L who designed the Pencils prefers the standard version over the super.
I'm driving them with a Fi 2A3 SET amp using the type 45 triode tube option @ ~ 1.5watts/channel.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/PensilsA122p-191012.pdf
I'm driving them with a Fi 2A3 SET amp using the type 45 triode tube option @ ~ 1.5watts/channel.
http://www.madisound.com/pdf/PensilsA122p-191012.pdf
Handy for your next "dance party".
You'll want double that for the front baffle, as you need some material to screw into after the rebate for the 12p.
jeff
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.