frequency modulation of the upper ranges by the bass!! - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 28th June 2013, 06:00 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by silverhairbp View Post
LISTEN TO THE MUSIC!!!

The rest just doesn't matter if the music is right.
yup.....
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Old 28th June 2013, 06:04 PM   #22
jcx is offline jcx  United States
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does all fullrange drivers suffer this? or are there any exceptions?
any technique to tame this ?
you asked a technical question - now you're trashing/being dismissive of the resulting technical discussion??

Last edited by jcx; 28th June 2013 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 29th June 2013, 04:58 AM   #23
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you asked a technical question - now you're trashing/being dismissive of the resulting technical discussion??
Hi JCX,
The reason other members are showing their frustration is that your ignoring the successful operational history of full-range and your also quoting Klippel out of context. You continue to ignore other factors, an indication of a lack of wide-band driver design knowledge.

For the record: Dr. Wolfgang Klippel met me in Hong Kong some years back. We had a supportive set discussions on driver design and operation. We discussed Markaudio driver design technology during this time, with a view to Markaudio using his test technology at some point in the future. At no point were there any suggestions from him that single cone full-range and single cone extended full-range drivers would become effectively in-operable due to output modulation variation (Dopler et al).

All experienced professionals like myself and Wolfgang recognise that phenomena like these are largely mitigated by practical application and not measurable "absolutes" upon which all loudspeaker design and operations should completely rely.

Member Bigun has better understood the operational reality of this phenomenon:

"Describing it as phase modulation turned on some light bulbs for me (as opposed to Doppler) - I think I can see where phase modulation can arise - the creation of successive peaks of the sound waves can occur when the cone surface is closer or further from the listener and this difference in distance translates to a difference in phase of the peaks. The distance the cone moves however is typically tiny so the phase modulation is also tiny and there are other distortion contributors in any speaker that are more important to pay attention to than this."

The essential point about most drivers is that many of the factors that come up for debate (Dopler and other various distortion issues) require members to properly appreciate the designer's operational performance goals for the driver.

Clearly, drivers taken close to, or outside their design limits will emit some or all of the phenomena mentioned in this thread. However, those members who apply themselves to sensibly matching the driver to the box and the boxes to their listening room size will likely not have any such audibility issues.

So JCX, you need to appreciate the context in which drivers operate rather than continue to "skew" the debate and then complain when other members are giving you encouragement to apply a more practical rationale.

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 29th June 2013 at 07:55 AM.
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Old 29th June 2013, 05:57 AM   #24
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after spending 2 months with alpairs 10.2 in small boxes and now in M10-A10, i believe that i am enjoying the music a lot with these speakers. i really think Bob should remove or modify the content on Will You Like My Speakers?
as it somewhat 'discourages' (especially the beginners who have never heard fullrange drivers) in my humble opinion!
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Old 29th June 2013, 06:43 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by soundnovice View Post
after spending 2 months with alpairs 10.2 in small boxes and now in M10-A10, i believe that i am enjoying the music a lot with these speakers. i really think Bob should remove or modify the content on Will You Like My Speakers?
as it somewhat 'discourages' (especially the beginners who have never heard fullrange drivers) in my humble opinion!
I have allot of sympathy with Bob's comments. In particular:

"Single-driver speakers are not for everyone. Single-driver speakers are about finesse, not power. Any speaer, sigle driver, 2-way, 3-way. whatever is a compromise. Each will have sonic advantages and failings. Therefore, you will wind up choosing speakers that work well with the bulk of your library and OK with the rest. There just isn't a speaker outh there that play everything well."

I think Bob's other comments, especially those referring to modulation should be read in the context of more traditional full-range driver designs. In particular the high efficiency short stroke types and those using secondary emitting devices (whizzers et al). Bob has recently (around a year) turned to using Markaudio drivers so we should give him time to appreciate the operational differences between the new breeds of ultra low mass, long throw, wide dispersion emitters (Markaudio et al) and earlier designs from traditional full-range makers.

Anyone who believes that multi-way systems somehow are immune from modulation issues are critically mistaken. I well know the problems of phase differential between different drivers deployed in multiway, but also the significant signal variances between larger oscillatory emitters when deployed with resonant units (tweets). There really is No Free Lunch in the loudspeaker world.

Thanks
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 29th June 2013 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 29th June 2013, 07:24 AM   #26
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I would like to give more food for thought. We know that pistonic drivers are highly inefficient because of poor coupling with atmosphere.

What does it mean in practice? When piston is moving forward it creates a zone of high pressure. In next (backward) phase, almost all this pressure will be consumed by piston back, and only small part of pressure changes travels toward listener.

We know that sound speed depends on air pressure. Also we can say that there is a medium, before diaphragm, where pressure deviations have pretty significant ratings and variable sound propagation .

And when we speak about Doppler Effect or acoustic phases the influence of this high pressure zone must be taken into account. We even could say that, the speaker diaphragm is not geometrical source of sound. The source is this medium, if only it wasn’t such blurred and dependant on waste numbers of variables.
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Old 29th June 2013, 07:47 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Moon Track View Post
I would like to give more food for thought. We know that pistonic drivers are highly inefficient because of poor coupling with atmosphere.

What does it mean in practice? When piston is moving forward it creates a zone of high pressure. In next (backward) phase, almost all this pressure will be consumed by piston back, and only small part of pressure changes travels toward listener.

We know that sound speed depends on air pressure. Also we can say that there is a medium, before diaphragm, where pressure deviations have pretty significant ratings and variable sound propagation .

And when we speak about Doppler Effect or acoustic phases the influence of this high pressure zone must be taken into account. We even could say that, the speaker diaphragm is not geometrical source of sound. The source is this medium, if only it wasn’t such blurred and dependant on waste numbers of variables.
I've some sympathy with the points you raise, especially in relation to high-mass sub woofer and higher mass bass units. These types of driver in musical output terms are problematic.

However, the debate is less clear if we consider these units for more "effect" when being deployed in Home Theatre setups or where the music is overtly commercial in nature (rock, house etc), repetitive and meant to be played loud. Then there is little choice for the driver designer. He/she has to build the driver strong like a Victorian lavatory, applying lots of metal and other materials while likely lamenting the waste of increasingly precious commodities.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 29th June 2013 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 29th June 2013, 09:58 AM   #28
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see it in this way. We can put most and least efficient speakers in same, inefficient class. I would expect that Doppler Effect will be most obvious with horns, but who uses them as full range? Ordinary designs will produce very minor effect because of the surface of membrane is just part of mechanism and real sound source is pressure formed on the speaker’s baffle.
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Old 29th June 2013, 09:02 PM   #29
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You have to understand why I put that disclaimer on my web site. I get daily inquiries about my products, the bulk from those with absolutely zero idea about what goes into designing a speaker or any other piece of audio gear for that matter. They fall into two camps: 1) "I'm unhappy with my current speakers so I thought I would give a full-range speaker a try." 2) "I just bought a pair of XYZ drivers and I want to know if they will work in one of your designs." The second class is easy. Send me your drivers and a few hundred bucks and I'll cobble up a strawman and let you know. For the first class, I need to ask some serious questions. Note that you cannot buy a pair of speakers directly from the web site. That is for one very good reason. The last thing that I can stand is to have to eat the return of a $2000 pair of speakers.

I will not sell speakers to anyone who requires 100dB at the listening chair or who tells me that they listen to a lot of metal, etc, or who listens to romantic symphonies at concert levels. The Fostex and Lowther designs simply can't do it, and the MA drivers, while they might for a while, would probably be destroyed.

I understand the concepts of Doppler/Am/FM/PM distortion. It is, however, next to impossible to get these across to someone who is into kilo-buck cables. Everyone can grasp the concept of (true) Doppler distortion. The physical reality that in speakers it's PM is not going to be understood. So, I took the argument to the FM level and let it lie.

I am aware that MA drivers can be played lower and louder than say a comparable Fostex. I can get into the 30's with the A7.3, but not very loud. Not loud enough to be satisfying in my 20'x25' room. The A10.2 will go lower louder, but not with the finesse of the A7.3. I have a preorder in for the A10P's. I have great expectations!

I like organ music. A lot of organ music has 32' stop tones. My dream speaker will do 90dB at 20Hz. It doesn't have to produce more that 90dB anywhere. Just in-room flat to 20. I have alluded to a proposed FAST speaker in the past, but this I am going to attempt this summer. Either the A7.3 or the A10P on top and whatever is needed on the bottom. The configuration will be a sub that serves as a stand for the top. This will be fun.

Bob
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Old 29th June 2013, 10:26 PM   #30
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I haven't read the thread or anything about the facts behind this kind of distorsion. But I know that heavy rock music does sound really bad on my Mar-Kel70 speakers, even at relatively low levels. Less complex music sounds fantastic though.
Compared to my current bigger speakers the Mar-Kel70 handles simple music much better but complex music is better played by the bigger three-driver speakers I have at the moment.

But after all it's quite logical. A single driver can't play too many frequencies at once without sounding really bad. But it can play a few frequencies at once and doing it really good, better than multiple drivers would.
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