Metal Alp10 Gen.3 V Paper Alp10 Gen.1 - Page 2 - diyAudio
Go Back   Home > Forums > Commercial Sector > Manufacturers > Markaudio

Markaudio Designers and builders of audiophile grade drivers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 7th May 2013, 03:35 PM   #11
diyAudio Member
 
Bob Brines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hot Spring Village AR
Mark,

You see what I mean about tubes/SS. I am not advocating that everyone dump there tubes. If that is the sound you like, go for it. Tubes add 2nd order distortion, uncontrolled bass, and subdued highs. These affects are most prominent in low powered SE amps and progressively go away as you move up to massively paralleled PP amps.
These affects give tubes that warm, euphonic sound.

I don't know how to add 2nd order harmonics to an SS amp, but I can EQ the top and bottom to emulate a tube amp. Just saying. Using a digital front end allow you to do a lot, including cover up places where the speakers/room is misbehaving.

BTW, My A12P speakers went over well a LSAF. General praise for the clarity/detail of the speaker. Only one person, a professional speaker designer, noticed the peak at 1.3kHz. I increased the EQ cut there and everyone was happy.

I also played the A7.3 TL. The little drivers were obviously laboring at 80dB ~8ft out. The A12P's were clearly superior in this format. Except in very low volume situations, the A7.3's need bass support and high passed 150-200Hz.

Bob
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 05:09 PM   #12
diyAudio Member
 
markaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
Mark,

You see what I mean about tubes/SS. I am not advocating that everyone dump there tubes. If that is the sound you like, go for it. Tubes add 2nd order distortion, uncontrolled bass, and subdued highs. These affects are most prominent in low powered SE amps and progressively go away as you move up to massively paralleled PP amps.
These affects give tubes that warm, euphonic sound.

I don't know how to add 2nd order harmonics to an SS amp, but I can EQ the top and bottom to emulate a tube amp. Just saying. Using a digital front end allow you to do a lot, including cover up places where the speakers/room is misbehaving.

BTW, My A12P speakers went over well a LSAF. General praise for the clarity/detail of the speaker. Only one person, a professional speaker designer, noticed the peak at 1.3kHz. I increased the EQ cut there and everyone was happy.

I also played the A7.3 TL. The little drivers were obviously laboring at 80dB ~8ft out. The A12P's were clearly superior in this format. Except in very low volume situations, the A7.3's need bass support and high passed 150-200Hz.

Bob
Hello Bob,
Yes, tube amps aren't for everyone and like so many things in life, they don't offer a perfect solution. Overall, I've managed pleasing result on both tube and solid state but freely accept that members opinions and tastes will be diverse.

Feel free to talk about your solid state and equalisation experiences.

Glad LSAF went well. Many thanks for showing the MLTL's with the Alp12P's.

Cheers
Mark.
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 07:15 PM   #13
diyAudio Member
 
vinylkid58's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Victoria, B.C.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
You see what I mean about tubes/SS. I am not advocating that everyone dump there tubes. If that is the sound you like, go for it. Tubes add 2nd order distortion, uncontrolled bass, and subdued highs. These affects are most prominent in low powered SE amps and progressively go away as you move up to massively paralleled PP amps.
These affects give tubes that warm, euphonic sound.
I agree with you that low powered single ended tube amps are going to struggle at anything over moderate listening levels, but you make their inherent characteristics sound much worse than they are, at least in my experience.

For me, 2A3 SET works very well with the A12p drivers, but not so well with the smaller drivers. Push pull tube amps are "it" for me in my main stereo, but I enjoy SS on the desktop.

jeff
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 07:35 PM   #14
diyAudio Member
 
Bob Brines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hot Spring Village AR
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinylkid58 View Post
....but you make their inherent characteristics sound much worse than they are, at least in my experience.
"Worse" is not the word I would use in this context. Anything with as large a following as low-power SE tubes probably is not "bad" I was just pointing out factors, and very well known factors, that produce the the "tube sound". Is the tube sound "better" or "worse" that SS? No, it is simply different. I am not in a position to tell you which "different" you should prefer.

Are we on the same page again?
Bob
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 07:57 PM   #15
diyAudio Member
 
vinylkid58's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Victoria, B.C.
Sure, it's all good

jeff
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 09:41 PM   #16
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: victoria BC
FWIW, I've heard dozens of SE & P/P tube amps over the years, including many that don't exhibit any of the characteristics that Bob describes, and many SS,including SE, chip-amps, & class T, that have left me wanting more - but before we devolve into this pointless debate, let's agree to differ.

Bob, glad to read of your success at LSAF - "careful what you wish for?"

Have you published the plans for the new A12P enclosure yet?
__________________
now on sabbatical
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 10:25 PM   #17
mp9 is offline mp9  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
^ +1 so have i. Including a hand full of output transformer-less tube amps from Atma-sphere Transcendent sound Graaf and Berning's 300B OTL mono's and ZOTL. Although i aven't heard any class T and chip amps. But yeah not all tube amps are created equal, be nice if i could afford half of them, lol.
  Reply With Quote
Old 7th May 2013, 10:45 PM   #18
diyAudio Member
 
markaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
"Worse" is not the word I would use in this context. Anything with as large a following as low-power SE tubes probably is not "bad" I was just pointing out factors, and very well known factors, that produce the the "tube sound". Is the tube sound "better" or "worse" that SS? No, it is simply different. I am not in a position to tell you which "different" you should prefer.

Are we on the same page again?
Bob
Hi Bob,
You've kindly emailed me recently with your practical use of Solid and Source methods. It would be useful to members if you could spare the time to briefly explain your SS and source set up.
Thanks
Mark.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2013, 03:35 AM   #19
diyAudio Member
 
Bob Brines's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Hot Spring Village AR
Sure, Mark.

Here's the deal. I have never run across a speaker that did not need some help, at least in room. if you have followed the thread on my M12-A12 speaker, I have a peak at 1.3kHz that is annoying. I still do not know the source of this peak, but it is easily handled with digital EQ. I put a digital trap on this peak and it improved the sound immeasurably. At the Lone Star Audio Fest, I demo'd these for several professional speaker designers. One heard the peak, so I increased the depth of the trap and everyone was happy.

If you have a speaker that sounds a little thin and analytical, the easy fix it to apply a bit of bass boost. I know, this goes against the grain with the purist ethic. If your system has bass/treble boost, give it a try. It will warm up a dry sounding system.

I use a computer front end. I use class D amps. I will not be drawn into a contest about digital/vinyl, SS/tubes. My music player contains a 31-band EQ. This allows rather precise repair to the failings of the system/room. When I am using a bass speaker to augment either a FAST alignment or and OB, I use the miniDSP. The miniDSP is not exactly SOTO, but it allows eight bi-quad filters plus band-pass on both drivers. This gives great flexibility to make the speakers sound exactly like you want.

My M12-A12 (A12P) can take a bit of help at the very bottom. The A12P has substantial excursion, but a bit of care is required. I high-pass the A12P at 30Hz 8th order, then boost everything below 100Hz as required. This allows the speaker to play at 80dB@8' continuous with substantial headroom. This allows the speakers to produce believable organ music with 32' stops, even though the speakers are high-passed. Everything below 40Hz vibrates the room and the missing low notes are reproduced psychoacoustically.

If anyone would like further details on effective EQ, I'll be glad to continue. If you are interested in a religious war, forget it. I won't respond.

Bob
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th May 2013, 04:55 AM   #20
diyAudio Member
 
markaudio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
Sure, Mark.

If anyone would like further details on effective EQ, I'll be glad to continue. If you are interested in a religious war, forget it. I won't respond.

Bob
Hello Chaps,
We must be fair to Bob. Many of us are sort of "hooked" on tubes (valves), traditional mosfets and CD collections etc. But even an olde buffer like me should learn a new audio trick or 2. Bob's kind enough to bring his ideas forward and give members more opportunity to "experiment".

3 cheers Bob, keep going. Feel free guys to engage and debate with mutual respect from all sides - thanks.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 8th May 2013 at 04:58 AM.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alpair 6P Gen. 2 (paper) introduction markaudio Markaudio 30 21st August 2013 04:59 AM
Alpair 12P Gen. 2 (paper cone) markaudio Markaudio 247 3rd June 2013 03:51 PM
Next Gen 70-mm Markaudio paper cone markaudio Markaudio 24 5th April 2012 11:59 PM
Alp10.2 in 17literBR OlavHaal Markaudio 27 27th November 2011 07:00 AM
Alp12 (or Alp10.2) For OB Line Array Use megasat16 Markaudio 1 9th August 2011 10:06 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:58 PM.


vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2014 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright 1999-2014 diyAudio

Content Relevant URLs by vBSEO 3.3.2