Alpair 7.3 F.A.S.T. - diyAudio
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Old 19th February 2013, 04:21 PM   #1
xam is offline xam  Germany
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Default Alpair 7.3 F.A.S.T.

Hey guys,
I just built a TQWT with the MA Alpair 7.3 and i'm really happy with the sound, the Alpair is just great.

Cause of this positive feeling i thought of building a second pair with the 10.2 or a passive FAST with a equivalent driver. I couldnt find any plans for a passive FAST, has anyone did it before? I need a passive crossover because i will use my stereo amp and no dsp with additional amps.

Any idea?

Thx
xam
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:28 PM   #2
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Gimme a couple of months. I will probably have box plans and a crossover for a 10.2 FAST. Working on it now.
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:39 PM   #3
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xam View Post
Hey guys,
I just built a TQWT with the MA Alpair 7.3 and i'm really happy with the sound, the Alpair is just great.

Cause of this positive feeling i thought of building a second pair with the 10.2 or a passive FAST with a equivalent driver. I couldnt find any plans for a passive FAST, has anyone did it before? I need a passive crossover because i will use my stereo amp and no dsp with additional amps.

Any idea?

Thx
xam
Since you asked, I'll start the bidding with a few disjointed, personal thoughts .

FAST's can be implement a variety of ways - your desire to use only a passive XO would suggest that you'd like a single enclosure per side?

Having heard more than a couple of enclosure designs using the 7.3 and 10.2, I'd recommend the 7.3 for any system in which bass augmentation is planned.

While the 10.2 unquestionably excels at heavy lifting that strains the smaller driver, if you like the 7.3 now, wait 'til you hear it relieved of the heavy lifting.

At the XO frequencies at which I've personally found FAST type systems to be most enjoyable ( 330Hz and below), the component values and cost of parts for passive XO can get up there.

While a bit trickier to implement , series XO have a lot of advantages. A recent project that worked quite well used 2 Mark Audio EL166 / Woofer 6s and Fostex FF85K and relatively simple series network.
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Old 19th February 2013, 06:04 PM   #4
xam is offline xam  Germany
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@silverhairbp
Month? I wish you said days, patience isn't my specialty...

@chrisb
Interesting, this is exactly what i thought of.
I have a few ideas on my list, the FAST with the 7.3 was one of it.
An easier test would be a 2.1 or 2.2 setup, one or two subwoofers in an external box powered by an a amp modul and a highpass for the 7.3.

The 10.2 instead of the 7.3 in TQWT could be the satisfaction i'm searching for, the 7 is just a bit to small to handle my needs.
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Old 19th February 2013, 07:20 PM   #5
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xam View Post
@silverhairbp
Month? I wish you said days, patience isn't my specialty...

@chrisb
Interesting, this is exactly what i thought of.
I have a few ideas on my list, the FAST with the 7.3 was one of it.
An easier test would be a 2.1 or 2.2 setup, one or two subwoofers in an external box powered by an a amp modul and a highpass for the 7.3.
I would have tried a trail of breadcrumbs to that destination, but you'd indicated the desire to go passive and avoid extra electronics.
I've been quite happy using the line level input on my single powered woofer - Foster OEM plate amp, but there are dozens of choices in the under $200 each range - even the Parts Express APA150 outboard (great value piece)

Dayton Audio APA150 150W Power Amplifier 300-812

I'd still suggest HP to the 7.3s - if the existing amp with which you're planning on driving them lacks a pre-main loop, implementing a passive line level XO gets a bit more complicated, but still well worth the effort. This is where current generation of budget HT receivers offer a ton of flexibility and great bang for buck, albeit at the sacrifice of sound quality compared to other solutions. (i.e. higher priced / separates - particularly dedicated 2 channel audio only with far less signal processing required for multichannel audio and video switching, etc)

Quote:

The 10.2 instead of the 7.3 in TQWT could be the satisfaction i'm searching for, the 7 is just a bit to small to handle my needs.
As I noted earlier, I've heard the 10.2 in a range of enclosures - they work quite well in a simple floorstandiong MLTL - Pensil or Brines' M10-A10, and at the sacrifice of a little extension / slam, but with more finesse , the stand mounted MarKen.

I just happen to prefer the 7.3, or for that matter the 12P to the current 10.2s (not that I'm aware of any pending revisions to same, but Mark has clearly demonstrated a trend to upgrade )
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Last edited by chrisb; 19th February 2013 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 19th February 2013, 08:57 PM   #6
xam is offline xam  Germany
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Thanks for your help, i bought a stereo amp last year which i don't want to replace so fast. (Denon PMA 710AE with the DCD 710 CD Player)
Otherwise i would test the minidsp with 2 simple amps...
At the moment i dont have any possibilitys to filter with this system.

Maybe i should wait for updates.
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Old 19th February 2013, 10:06 PM   #7
TiMBoZ is offline TiMBoZ  Australia
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Hi Xam,

I've been inspired by/interested in this idea for a while. For me it's an appealing concept. At mo, I have an A12 in open U-frame with a passive XO woofer and a super tweeter that I'm working on/playing around with. Its a passive F.A.S.T idea I guess. I'm pretty happy with it. I have an amp to drive it. Other than it is a pretty large speaker for the room I have.

I started with an A10 then got an A12. An A7 might be next.


Making the low pass active solves a lot of issues, but I certainly relate to 'all passive' design ideal.

Having spent some time grappling with this concept, my suggestions would be:

be very clear/specific about the design concept:

Is it a multi way or is it full range with a woofer? If XOing > 200 say it starts becoming a multi way. The execution of the XO becomes critical to success. The complexity of the project is much trickier. If it's a full range with a woofer and you're XOing <200 say, it's more straight forward IMO. More likely to sound 'properly' good IMO.

There are plenty of over > 85-86db woofers to choose from

For me an A7 would lend itself to a more complex, 2-way idea XO > 200.

If you have the resources to do a good passive XO between 250 – 400Hz, then this would be an appealing, possibly very popular speaker project. Unfortunately I don't. Also I think you will need a well damped/high current amp to drive through a large low pass filter and support a low impedance. Unless this can be avoided somehow with a series XO - which I don't know the technicalities of exactly. I think it's kind of 'inverted' XO. Expansion on series crossovers could be an educational topic…

Making the low pass 'active' solves a heck lot of issues, but I can relate to an 'all passive' design ideal myself

I'd define:

The design concept - is it F.A.S.T or a 2-way?

how much $$ I want to spend on a woofer, invest in the project

how loud I like to/can listen

the type of amp I have/plan to use .

This will would steer me to the choice of drivers, general viability of the project.

If I was doing an inverted passive 2-way XO > 200 - 400 or so I'd go a sealed A7 plus a sexy 6-7inch woofer in a vented box. A very luvable idea IMO

If I was doing a F.A.S.T XO < 200 or so - I'd go an A12 or A10. With an ACTIVE sealed woofer. Either with plate amps or a separate amp to drive the woofers.

I have a bit of an itch to work on/try an A7 passive 2-way for myself one day, but I'm baulking at the XO, risk/complexity of it overall. It's outside my DIY scope at mo. So I'm looking on with interest.
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Old 20th February 2013, 04:39 PM   #8
xam is offline xam  Germany
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Hey TiMBoz,

I will try to answer your questions bit by bit.
The F.A.S.T. Idea comes with my desire to keep the broadband nature and improve it by an woofer like an afterburner.
XOing<200Hz

I don't want to spend much more than 300 for this project - there was a german concept called SevenUp, with the old AP 7 + TB W6-1721.
SevenUp Grau Bausatz - Lautsprechershop von blue planet acoustic
I'm searching for an equivalent project with the new Alpair gen.

For now i'm wondering if i shoud buy/build me a cheap subwoofer to relieve the 7s and look how this works. There are two used MA 10.2 on german ebay, too.
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Old 20th February 2013, 05:10 PM   #9
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xam View Post
Hey TiMBoz,

I will try to answer your questions bit by bit.
The F.A.S.T. Idea comes with my desire to keep the broadband nature and improve it by an woofer like an afterburner.
XOing<200Hz

I don't want to spend much more than 300 for this project - there was a german concept called SevenUp, with the old AP 7 + TB W6-1721.
SevenUp Grau Bausatz - Lautsprechershop von blue planet acoustic
I'm searching for an equivalent project with the new Alpair gen.

For now i'm wondering if i shoud buy/build me a cheap subwoofer to relieve the 7s and look how this works. There are two used MA 10.2 on german ebay, too.
I can't see any reason why a project such as the SevenUp wouldn't work just as well with the 7.3, with whichever bass driver you consider suitable. We acquired a fair number of CSS SDX7s a couple of years ago, and have just about depleted that stock. It's been particularly fun to work with this driver as it can be used in pretty tiny boxes - greatly simplifying enclosure design.


There are presently quite a few candidates in the 6-8" mid bass driver range from which to choose - on this side of the pond Silver Flute and Peerless are near the top of our dance card - and since this is the Mark Audio forum, I'll vote yet again for a replacement / update to the great little EL166 / Woofer 6
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Last edited by chrisb; 20th February 2013 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 21st February 2013, 02:47 AM   #10
TiMBoZ is offline TiMBoZ  Australia
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Ok, there you go! the Seven Up project. Someone has already had a crack at it.

I reckon it's a very nifty idea. At least in aesthetic/static appeal. Part of the fun is combining the A7 with a ones own woofer preference: for myself perhaps with a 'metal' cone. Wouldn't be hard to come up with a nicer looking box for it either. Pity there weren't more details for the XO etc.

Also there are a couple of other very professional looking projects around with the A7 combined with active subs. Suggest have a look over those, and decide how you want to proceed. I don't think you'll be stuck for suggestions on possible woofers to use etc.
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