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Old 15th January 2013, 06:34 AM   #51
TiMBoZ is offline TiMBoZ  Australia
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Now this a a juicy topic! In coming 20 dime etc....

After spending some time listening to MA drivers and some 'burlier' alternatives in traditional 2 way arrangement. Burlier drivers are not without their charms: drive, dynamic articulation and control, lack of/less compression. Less 'box' and more 'motor' to the sound. You can't measure this. Only hear and feel it. They just do their 'best work' lower down the frequency spectrum. 'Fidelity' is subjective. It isn't just defined by harmonic/timbral accuracy etc. What the 'drrrrive' the punch, the 'shove factor' that's not just about bass.. on a searing saxophone? There's a toe tapping, get you moving, tunefulness, a musicality afforded by (albiet heavier) tightly controlled, dynamically optimised drivers. But they're all just 'flavours' - strong in this area, not so strong in that area. That's hi-fi.

By the sounds of it, your tending towards doing a 6 & 1 kind of thing which is fair enough..it's your forum, your business, your perogative, but..

You've kind of nailed it with A12, A10, A7 etc. It would good to have a versatile more dynamically optimised woofer's woofer that's matches, is complimentary to, your existing range of wide band drivers, that's all.

I chose MA because it seemed like a contemporary, modern take on the wide range Fostex, Lowther kind of thing. That's sort of your 'brand' from where I'm sitting.

Thanks for reading..TiMBo
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Old 15th January 2013, 07:57 AM   #52
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Originally Posted by TiMBoZ View Post
Now this a a juicy topic! In coming 20 dime etc....

After spending some time listening to MA drivers and some 'burlier' alternatives in traditional 2 way arrangement. Burlier drivers are not without their charms: drive, dynamic articulation and control, lack of/less compression. Less 'box' and more 'motor' to the sound. You can't measure this. Only hear and feel it. They just do their 'best work' lower down the frequency spectrum. 'Fidelity' is subjective. It isn't just defined by harmonic/timbral accuracy etc. What the 'drrrrive' the punch, the 'shove factor' that's not just about bass.. on a searing saxophone? There's a toe tapping, get you moving, tunefulness, a musicality afforded by (albiet heavier) tightly controlled, dynamically optimised drivers. But they're all just 'flavours' - strong in this area, not so strong in that area. That's hi-fi.

By the sounds of it, your tending towards doing a 6 & 1 kind of thing which is fair enough..it's your forum, your business, your perogative, but..

You've kind of nailed it with A12, A10, A7 etc. It would good to have a versatile more dynamically optimised woofer's woofer that's matches, is complimentary to, your existing range of wide band drivers, that's all.

I chose MA because it seemed like a contemporary, modern take on the wide range Fostex, Lowther kind of thing. That's sort of your 'brand' from where I'm sitting.

Thanks for reading..TiMBo
This subverts the very definition of fidelity. There is only one signal per source channel, and the closer the waveform recovered from loudspeaker tracks this the higher the fidelity. Fidelity is not subjective. Truth is what we all agree to and hold in common as basis for reality.

Truth is discrete signal over interval of time may be decomposed into series of sine waves with specific amplitude and phase. For each frequency there is no fast or slow. Either driver can reproduce intended range preserving amplitude and phase of each component frequency truthfully, or with some level of distortion.

Thin/thick skinned drivers each have strengths and weaknesses.

It's often difficult to ignore what is happening across a paper thin wall.

The bigger a thin wall, the more sound passing through.
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Old 15th January 2013, 08:18 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
This subverts the very definition of fidelity. There is only one signal per source channel, and the closer the waveform recovered from loudspeaker tracks this the higher the fidelity. Fidelity is not subjective. Truth is what we all agree to and hold in common as basis for reality.

Truth is discrete signal over interval of time may be decomposed into series of sine waves with specific amplitude and phase. For each frequency there is no fast or slow. Either driver can reproduce intended range preserving amplitude and phase of each component frequency truthfully, or with some level of distortion.

Thin/thick skinned drivers each have strengths and weaknesses.

It's often difficult to ignore what is happening across a paper thin wall.

The bigger a thin wall, the more sound passing through.
But what sounds good is subjective, isn't it?
Some people may prefer a more dynamic sound. I can say that I don't think any fullrange driver can meet my needs. Well, for listening at low spl fullrange drivers are great and beat everything else in the same price range, but when it comes to playing loud the fullrangers tend to compress and sound bad quite early.
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Old 15th January 2013, 08:22 AM   #54
TiMBoZ is offline TiMBoZ  Australia
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Truth in hi fi is a myth, it's unobtainable IMO. The goalposts move from one paradigm to another everytime you change the LP or shuffle to another tune. By 'subjective', I mean any given system of components will have strengths and weaknesses. I don't subscribe to the idea/notion that the "low power/low mass/high efficiency 'club of guys', own 'high fidelity' or own 'the truth'. Tell that to Vandetseen, YG Acoustics, Magico, Thiel etc. etc. A good deal of the 'truth/fidelity' you hear coming from any given speaker has a lot to do with the amp that's driving it, the room you hear it in and the the music you happen to be playing on it. Strengths are weaknesses.
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Old 15th January 2013, 09:22 AM   #55
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Flat frequency response is obtainable, and treats all sources the same way. True mark of colored speaker is limited material that sounds realistic.

Truth is one paradigm.

Truth in hi fi is only myth for those who can't obtain it.
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Old 15th January 2013, 09:27 AM   #56
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wow... this thread has really gotten off topic
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Old 15th January 2013, 10:23 AM   #57
TiMBoZ is offline TiMBoZ  Australia
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We're debating the future direction MA next product release ( I think). Fidelity isn't just flat frequency response. Fidelity is also articulating sonic 'weight': conveyng the strength of a big man blowing into a saxophone, the percussive attack of the drum stick hitting the skins on a drum roll down a set of tom toms, timpani whatever. It's not about just the timbre, the harmonic realism, it's also how well the system/speaker conveys percussive and dynamics effects in music. Which are every bit as valid or important to music as any other aspect of it. This my point. Sorry if it's off topic. I'm done for today.
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Old 15th January 2013, 10:35 AM   #58
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(Mark, a little off topic, but are these your new tweeters, and will they be available to western markets, or posted on your website?)
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Old 15th January 2013, 10:57 AM   #59
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All good and interesting comments guys.

while some posts are a bit broad of the topic, they help to think more about users expectations, desires and thinking. This feedback help me to focus on driver design/development.

Re the tweets, at this moment they're heading for Japan but should become available to other regions in the coming months, hence part of the consideration of a new woofer.

Cheers
Mark.
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Old 15th January 2013, 11:09 AM   #60
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For some to consider. I believe an Alpair 10.2 and the new CSS tweeter would make a killer combo. I have never found the 10.2 lacking in bass(midbass)and it sounds like Mark will not be veering very far from that type of design in any future woofer, as he is most concerned with fidelity. I have come close to putting the 7.3 on top of the 10.2, trying to take advantage of both their strengths. I wish the woof6 was available, simply because i would like to pair it with a6p in computer bookshelf. Oh well, nuff said for me. I am enjoying the discourse. Thanks Mark for listening, as most producers do not.
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