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Old 27th May 2012, 11:26 PM   #21
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Mark, FWIW, I'm probably a more vocal cheerleader for the EL70 than Dave - as several forum members who've shared listening sessions with myself are free to testify.

I think there are several factors for its poor commercial performance relative the CHR / Ps - including the limited distribution network of stock drivers compared to MA branded products, and the higher cost and skepticism still attendant to the "treated" versions. Full disclaimer - I guess you could say I'm still "drinking the kool-aid" - but let's not open that can of worms, it was just mentioned in the above context.

As has been frequently noted, I listen for several hours daily to systems with both EL70 and Alpair7 & 6M, as well frequently enjoy the opportunity to listen to a variety of FR drivers in the 3-8" weight class ( Alpair, Fostex, Fountek, CSS, TangBand, etc) - none of them are perfect or make me want to trash all the others - if forced to downsize to a single pair, I don't know which way I'd go.


ssportclay:

as to extending the discussion to "mitigate" confusion, that's not been my experience - in a manufacturer's forum such as this there is the option for careful monitoring /editing by the "owner", but in the open forums it takes surprisingly little time for "extended discussions" to devolve to rancor - as many long time members have the battle-scars to prove

until such time as somebody can pony up the required capital for Mark to replicate (or improve) on the EL70, which would presumably result in a driver different from his own current (or future) MA branded models, let's just be appreciative of the drivers that are available, as well as the work of enclosure designers such as Scott, Colin, Bob Brines, and yes, Dave
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Last edited by chrisb; 27th May 2012 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 28th May 2012, 12:02 AM   #22
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Hi Chris, Zia, Guys,

I mean no ill will to Dave and anyone else who has enthusiasm for the EL-70. Dave's support and efforts to help others on Diyaudio is fantastic.

I'm technically proud of EL-70 driver. For those who remember, I had a hell of a time pushing the parts suppliers for acceptable quality, especially the spider, which I rejected 3 batches before finally getting the these suspensions within tolerance. It should be remembered that the EL-70 is pre-Matsubara san.

There are several factors that come into play regarding the EL-70's relatively poor sales performance. Thankfully, none relate to its technical performance. The EL was(is) available in N. America and Europe, the 2 largest markets for Markaudio related product at the time. It had no direct Markaudio model competing with it. I've honoured my pledge to Bob Reimer (CSS) not to produce a similar paper coned driver while the EL-70 remains on sale, hence CHP's and CHBW's have markedly different characteristics.

Overall, the EL-70 had a good run, but it hasn't taken off. At the end of the day, I have to take a cold shower at look at any future replacement with a commercially focused set of eyes. I don't have the financial resources to built designs that sit on shelves for 3 years before they sell out, neither do the dealers.

My point about Dave's (and others) desire to have the EL-70 re-made is that no matter how well liked by its supporters, if it aint popular with the bulk of Diyers, commercial reality has to be recognised and applied by all of us. Naturally, I remain open to to DIyaudio group buys and similar arrangements. The minimum quantity is 500 units.

Personally, I think it makes more sense to collectively focus on current and future driver types, input from forum members being a key part of the development processes for these drivers.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 28th May 2012 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 28th May 2012, 04:50 AM   #23
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I lobbied for the CHP70.2 to be the best of the EL70 & the original CHP (they were more similar than different i believe, Zia one i know who can comment?). When Mark went a different way (and frankly didn't hit the target -- the Alpair6p did hit that target), us in NA had only the EL70, and the Europeans the CHP70 (comments Colin?), for what a low cost Mark Audio paper driver should grow out of, being somewhat dissapointed by the CHP70.2, not because it is not a good driver but our feelings that it did not fill the boots of what preceeded it, frankly 2 fantastic drivers that hit well above their price point.

I'd like to see a CHP70.3 that retreats back to the targets hit by the EL70/CHP70. It could benefit from the Matsubara-san spider, the more advanced cone profile, improving its finesse & detail, and leaving off the 2nd magnet of the EL70 would help it have a chance of keeping its price point. And a big one, which Chris already hit, no disrespect for Bob, but the distribution model that the EL70 sat on, did not work, the same driver sold as a Mark Audio, in the same stream as the CHR, would have sold much better, the numbers of the 2nd coming of the original CHP for the European market points towards that (original, original CHP were the small batch (<200?) with the pale frames made for the Japanese market).

I would also like to see the Vas move back towards the earlier drivers. CHP70.2, based on the box designs for it, owes much more to CHR than CHP/EL70. Larger Vas means more room to get bass out of them.

I don't care if the driver is called EL70 or CHP, i just want to see one that fullfills the promise of the originals.

dave
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Old 28th May 2012, 05:57 AM   #24
zman01 is offline zman01  Bangladesh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
I lobbied for the CHP70.2 to be the best of the EL70 & the original CHP (they were more similar than different i believe, Zia one i know who can comment?).
Both nice drivers in my experience - I have tried them out in the FH Mk3. The CHP-70 gen1 to my ears is slightly dry sounding vs the EL-70 with a bit more vocal/midrange prominence (I like to think of it as MA sound with a touch of Fostex - Matsubara San influence here? )- some would call it as an edge in mid-range - depends on the listening preference; The EL-70 has more extended highs and more bottom, and can be thrashed more (excursion starts at higher SPL).

No experience with the CHP-70 Gen2 or the CHPBW yet, nor any with the Alp 6.2P.

Last edited by zman01; 28th May 2012 at 06:00 AM.
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Old 28th May 2012, 11:38 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
I lobbied for the CHP70.2 to be the best of the EL70 & the original CHP (they were more similar than different i believe, Zia one i know who can comment?). When Mark went a different way (and frankly didn't hit the target -- the Alpair6p did hit that target), us in NA had only the EL70, and the Europeans the CHP70 (comments Colin?), for what a low cost Mark Audio paper driver should grow out of, being somewhat dissapointed by the CHP70.2, not because it is not a good driver but our feelings that it did not fill the boots of what preceeded it, frankly 2 fantastic drivers that hit well above their price point.

I'd like to see a CHP70.3 that retreats back to the targets hit by the EL70/CHP70. It could benefit from the Matsubara-san spider, the more advanced cone profile, improving its finesse & detail, and leaving off the 2nd magnet of the EL70 would help it have a chance of keeping its price point. And a big one, which Chris already hit, no disrespect for Bob, but the distribution model that the EL70 sat on, did not work, the same driver sold as a Mark Audio, in the same stream as the CHR, would have sold much better, the numbers of the 2nd coming of the original CHP for the European market points towards that (original, original CHP were the small batch (<200?) with the pale frames made for the Japanese market).

I would also like to see the Vas move back towards the earlier drivers. CHP70.2, based on the box designs for it, owes much more to CHR than CHP/EL70. Larger Vas means more room to get bass out of them.

I don't care if the driver is called EL70 or CHP, i just want to see one that fullfills the promise of the originals.

dave
Dave,
Agreed, the marketing of the EL-70 wasn't progressive (sorry Bob) but it was available in N. America and Europe. From my memory, EL's started to sell Ok in Europe, then tailed off. Both versions of the CHP were/are in stock world-wide. Ironically, CHP-70 Gen.2 is selling at the better rate than its predecessor. None of these drivers are big sellers compared to CHR and Alpairs.

The problem posed by the persistent focused lobbying is it skews the true picture for the underlying demand (lack of) for the 70-mm paper cone drivers. It increases my commercial risk. If you're sure a CHP- Gen.3 is the right way to go, make a 200+ unit single purhase to help out.

Commercially, I'm not sure what to do the 70-mm paper coned drivers. In my heart, I'd much like to "tweak" the CHP, but I've got the accountant hovering over my shoulder telling me to get real.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 28th May 2012 at 11:59 PM.
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Old 29th May 2012, 12:31 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
Mark, FWIW, I'm probably a more vocal cheerleader for the EL70 than Dave - as several forum members who've shared listening sessions with myself are free to testify.

I think there are several factors for its poor commercial performance relative the CHR / Ps - including the limited distribution network of stock drivers compared to MA branded products, and the higher cost and skepticism still attendant to the "treated" versions. Full disclaimer - I guess you could say I'm still "drinking the kool-aid" - but let's not open that can of worms, it was just mentioned in the above context.

As has been frequently noted, I listen for several hours daily to systems with both EL70 and Alpair7 & 6M, as well frequently enjoy the opportunity to listen to a variety of FR drivers in the 3-8" weight class ( Alpair, Fostex, Fountek, CSS, TangBand, etc) - none of them are perfect or make me want to trash all the others - if forced to downsize to a single pair, I don't know which way I'd go.

ssportclay:
as to extending the discussion to "mitigate" confusion, that's not been my experience - in a manufacturer's forum such as this there is the option for careful monitoring /editing by the "owner", but in the open forums it takes surprisingly little time for "extended discussions" to devolve to rancor - as many long time members have the battle-scars to prove

until such time as somebody can pony up the required capital for Mark to replicate (or improve) on the EL70, which would presumably result in a driver different from his own current (or future) MA branded models, let's just be appreciative of the drivers that are available, as well as the work of enclosure designers such as Scott, Colin, Bob Brines, and yes, Dave
Hi Chris,
Appreciate your comments, very comprehensive. As said to Dave, the danger of focused lobbying is runs the risk of creating an artificial demand that doesn't pan out once the driver becomes available. On the other hand, I'm glad Dave, you and other guys have the enthusiasm to support the drivers on the forum, for which I'm very grateful. Its a question of "balance" which I accept isn't a clear situation.

We collectively became limited by the pledge situation to Bob Reimer (CSS), not to make a competitor driver while the EL-70 is on the market. My hands were/are somewhat tied until the EL-70 walks (or crawls) into the history books (soon I believe). Bob told me sometime back he wouldn't be placing a new EL-70 order.

I'm in the same boat as you, swopping out speaker systems on the regular basis. I put is down to how Im feeling. At the moment, I've got a bad back so any soothing music is welcome so gravitate to Alp 7's and 10's. After the trip to the gym and Chinese bone doctor, I feel sparkly (pain relieved) and crank the new 12P's with CD's from my classical collection.

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 29th May 2012 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 29th May 2012, 01:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ssportclay View Post
Hi Dave: I guess I am really trying to kick around the small differences in the 70mm paper cone drivers. The older EL-70 seems to be favored by some over the newer CHP-70. It seems the EL-70 fills a need while the CHP-70 seems to be aimed at a different part of the market. Instead of the EL-70 product just dying and leaving once all unit are eventually sold, would it not be practical for an improved EL-70 to be introduced along side the current CHP-70 ? I think extending the discussion will actually reduce confusion. After all, there are many available drivers from which to choose.
Hi ssportclay,
Appreciate you comments, glad you're making these contributions. As you may have seen from the other recent posts on the latter section of this thread, the EL-70 has some commercial history that restricts me from progressing developments on the CHP. I think sales of EL-70 are pretty much finished so my freedom should return soon.

That leads us to contemplate the wider economic and demand situations, the volatility of the world economy being particularly stressing. I remain unsure if there's enough real demand for a paper coned 70-mm driver. As said to Dave, Diyaudio members can make a difference if any want to buy a bulk stock of drivers.

Chris's point about extending the discussions is timely. For my part, I'm keen to encourage members to get involved in these types of issues. The challenge is to help members better understand the challenges facing small manufacturers like me, so their post contributions are made with more knowledge and understanding. I genuinely hope to see members have influence on Markaudio's operations and products. The question is how to balance opinion so its more representative of the bulk of members (hence my points to Dave and Chris about lobbying). We should think of this process as organic with further development needed.

I'm glad that the Markaudio section has grown, hosting regular contributions. Chris's point about the Full-range section of the forum is accurate. Sadly, debates on that section can sometimes descend into a cyber brawl, something I won't allow on the Markaudio section.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 29th May 2012 at 01:06 AM.
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Old 29th May 2012, 05:01 PM   #28
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Mark - do you realize that you've already spoiled us - not just with the performance/value of your drivers, but with these conversations?



Kids - just try and get this level of honest discussion from any of the other manufacturers of drivers

now, it's time to start "binning" - collecting the empties from the next couple of regional DIY fests could well take us half way to the deposit required for a group buy - the only question would be whose name on the label
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