Alpair 12P Gen. 2 (paper cone) - Page 3 - diyAudio
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Old 9th April 2012, 03:04 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talaerts View Post
Would it be possible to see a "waterfall" diagram? The original 12 wasn't too great in that respect (according to a German test I once saw), I do have high hopes for this new version.
Frequency plots at 15 and 30 degrees off center would also be interesting.
Hi Talearts,
I haven't seen the German test for the old driver, how it was done and under what test conditions. However, the Alp12 was voted the best in the comprehensive Japanese test published in MJ magazine. That test compared the Alp12 (Gen. 1) with the Diatone P-610 and the Daito Voice DS-16F. I've copied their waterfall plots - see pics ©MJ Magazine, all rights reserved.

I'll be doing more testing over the coming days which will include anechoic off-axis measurements. I expect the off axis performance of the 12P to exceed the Gen. 1 driver. The Gen.1 driver's cone has a height profile of 26-mm while the new version has a more open profile @ 22-mm. The Alpair 12 (Gen. 1) was the only unit in the MJ comparison to gain in off-axis performance - quote:

"With all drivers, the roll-off of high frequency response starts from 2 kHz, with deteriorating more with larger off-axle angle. Only one exception is Alpair 12 with 30 degree off-set, which is increasing over 10 kHz". etal MJ issue 145

Ozawo Tkahisa San (Roppongi Institute of Technology) did the original testing for MJ, so I'm hoping he has time to carry out the Japanese test review of the Alp12P.

The first batch of 12P are destined for Madisound USA and Japan. If you have an interest in the Alpair 12P, please contact Daniel at Lautsprechershop: Daniel Gattig: daniel@lautsprechershop.de

Thanks
Mark.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Alp12-DF16F-P610-w.jpg (319.9 KB, 964 views)
File Type: jpg Mj-134.jpg (240.3 KB, 903 views)

Last edited by markaudio; 9th April 2012 at 03:24 AM.
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Old 9th April 2012, 03:47 AM   #22
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Hi Mark,
I now realise that my question did perhaps seem more aggressive than I meant it.
Clarification: in a test of various FR drivers in the German magazine Klang & Ton or Hobby Hifi (forgot which one, need to check), several of your drivers performed admirably, except the A12 which very visible in the waterfall diagram had various quite strong resonances throughout the mid and treble region. I now realise that it could have been a one-off problematic specimen.
In any case, while I am very interested in a big Alpair, it made me wait for a new generation, and this new one seems very interesting indeed..
Regarding distribution, is there a reseller in Singapore (where I currently reside) ?
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Old 9th April 2012, 04:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talaerts View Post
Hi Mark,
I now realise that my question did perhaps seem more aggressive than I meant it.
Clarification: in a test of various FR drivers in the German magazine Klang & Ton or Hobby Hifi (forgot which one, need to check), several of your drivers performed admirably, except the A12 which very visible in the waterfall diagram had various quite strong resonances throughout the mid and treble region. I now realise that it could have been a one-off problematic specimen.
In any case, while I am very interested in a big Alpair, it made me wait for a new generation, and this new one seems very interesting indeed..
Regarding distribution, is there a reseller in Singapore (where I currently reside) ?
Hi T,
Its no problem. I remember K und T did a test where the data presented had some contra-deviation, possibly due to the thickness of the test baffle wall. K und T's tests are normally reasonably close to ours so somewhere in their set-up something likely happened to cause the deviation. The Japanese tests are carried out in isolation lab at an Institute of Technology so I like to ask them for their independent verification when their time permits.

interestingly, I've just completed an 1700 word article with diagrams for K und T on the subject of production challenges for Full-Range Chassis Motor Sets.

We don't as yet have a dealer in Singapore, we supply your location direct: email: support@markaudio.com

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 9th April 2012 at 05:03 AM.
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Old 9th April 2012, 05:15 AM   #24
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Thanks for the clarification, Mark
I will contact the support address.

best,

Tom
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Old 9th April 2012, 07:45 AM   #25
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The Pensil 12.2 actually has quite a substantial increase in Vb over the old box. The new unit will work in both the original cabinet, but the bottom end will end up somewhat lacking.

For a BR, my taste would be for a slightly damped alignment, e.g. those Mark referenced above. As always, YMMV.

Last edited by Scottmoose; 9th April 2012 at 07:59 AM.
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Old 9th April 2012, 09:56 AM   #26
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This seems quite ok in WinISD pro alpha, using the T/S parameters published in this thread:

Click the image to open in full size.

30 l tuned to 55hz
vent diameter 10.27cm, vent length 19.47 cm

xmax (if that simulation is ok in winisd pro alpha, I don't know) is not excessive.

I can imagine it as a nice standmount speaker: internally approx 43.3 cm high, 25 cm wide, 30cm deep. Vent = slit at bottom of front, 3.3cm high, 19.47 cm deep.
+ small adjustments for for internal panel dimensions.

Comments?

Tom
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Old 9th April 2012, 11:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talaerts View Post
This seems quite ok in WinISD pro alpha, using the T/S parameters published in this thread:

30 l tuned to 55hz
vent diameter 10.27cm, vent length 19.47 cm

xmax (if that simulation is ok in winisd pro alpha, I don't know) is not excessive.

I can imagine it as a nice standmount speaker: internally approx 43.3 cm high, 25 cm wide, 30cm deep. Vent = slit at bottom of front, 3.3cm high, 19.47 cm deep.
+ small adjustments for for internal panel dimensions.

Comments?
Tom
Hi Tom,
Could be interesting. Re the internal dimensions, they look a bit big? 430-mm high X 250-mm wide X 300-mm deep = 32.25 litres? The graphs looks good. A slight kick at around the vent tuning is OK. Might be worth checking the sims again, or maybe its just Winzip? Then again it could a interesting experimenter. Could make this box and gradually pack it out with more damping, see what happens.

Likely volumes should around to 16 to 20 litre range for vented. I've got the feeling that this driver needs some air, so a bigger box could be worth some experimentation. Ummmmmmph.................

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 9th April 2012 at 11:53 AM.
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Old 9th April 2012, 11:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottmoose View Post
The Pensil 12.2 actually has quite a substantial increase in Vb over the old box. The new unit will work in both the original cabinet, but the bottom end will end up somewhat lacking.

For a BR, my taste would be for a slightly damped alignment, e.g. those Mark referenced above. As always, YMMV.
Hi Scott,
Many thanks for the suggestions, much welcomed.

From last Friday's run in the existing Pensil 12 boxes, I'll be taking out some internal damping this Saturday at the second listening event.

I'm pretty certain a bigger Pensil is the way to go, but those guys who want to retro fit into existing Pensil 12's , it still sound OK if a tad light on the bass.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 9th April 2012 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 9th April 2012, 12:19 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markaudio View Post
Hi Tom,
Could be interesting. Re the internal dimensions, they look a bit big? 430-mm high X 250-mm wide X 300-mm deep = 32.25 litres? The graphs looks good. A slight kick at around the vent tuning is OK. Might be worth checking the sims again, or maybe its just Winzip? Then again it could a interesting experimenter. Could make this box and gradually pack it out with more damping, see what happens.

Likely volumes should around to 16 to 20 litre range for vented. I've got the feeling that this driver needs some air, so a bigger box could be worth some experimentation. Ummmmmmph.................

Cheers
Mark.
Regarding the internal dimensions, I had 40x25X30 cm = 30l + the volume of the bass reflex pipe (equivalent to a circle with 10.2 cm diameter). Hence.
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Old 9th April 2012, 03:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talaerts View Post
Regarding the internal dimensions, I had 40x25X30 cm = 30l + the volume of the bass reflex pipe (equivalent to a circle with 10.2 cm diameter). Hence.
Hi Tom,
Dave's mentioned 16 litres, I'm suggesting up to 20 but don't be put off any experimentation. Have you got some facility in Singapore to make simple boxes, or get them made locally?
Thanks
Mark.
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