Alpair 12P Gen. 2 (paper cone) - Page 24 - diyAudio
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Old 3rd May 2013, 06:13 PM   #231
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by talaerts View Post
I would have sacrificed say 3db of efficiency to get decent bass in a smaller box.
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Originally Posted by zman01 View Post
Tom,

If you mean from a driver design goal perspective, other MA drivers already do that - like the Alp 10.2.

The Alp 12P was designed for the high efficiency crowd, and according to Mark and what we can gather from forum feedback, has done pretty well in satisfying that segment's expectations.

In Scott's 16 lite box tuned to 55 Hz, the A12P delivers decent bass in medium size rooms.

and let's not forget the genesis of the 12P - IIRC, higher sensitivity has long been on DIYers' wish-list, and being the empirical engineer that he is, Mark was faced with the same constraints as any driver designer.

in addition to Hoffman's Iron Law, there's the 3 Ps - performance, price, practicality - sure variable power supply field coil motors driving spider-less washi paper cones in cast bronze baskets and carbon fiber enclosures might sound divine, but how deep would a manufacturer's pockets need to be to endure the very low demand for such a product, and stay afloat long enough to build any type of market traction?

have we become so jaded that we overlook just how bloody amazing it is that any brand of affordable components for the DIYer perform as well as they do?
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Old 5th May 2013, 09:06 PM   #232
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ok, then its decided. I will build collin's enclosure 16L box. if I need bass supoort, I'll build a single subwoofer. I have a super8 around.
thanks!
I think I had seen someone willing to sell his enclosure which were exactly collin's enclosure. Are you guys remember who it was? Ok, I found it. its Vaughn, but they are already sold.

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Old 30th May 2013, 09:59 PM   #233
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Greetings - I have just finished building a Pass F5 (Glorious) and it has made me realise that it is time to move on from my much loved celestion 442's. I have pondered the FR option for a while, and the Mark Audio drivers seem to be such amazing value and quality, I am opting for my first speaker build.

I am looking for a "end game" build, something to do justice to the F5, and have settled on the 12p's as the most likely candidate. I love the warmer sound of a paper driver and a respectable bass response.

My indecision is which Pensil enclosure to build, and the pro's and cons of the super Pensil for the 12p. Is the general consensus to build bigger if you can, because it is simply the better option? Or is there an appreciable loss of efficiency with the larger box?

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.
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Old 30th May 2013, 10:36 PM   #234
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by lorienblack View Post
Greetings - I have just finished building a Pass F5 (Glorious) and it has made me realise that it is time to move on from my much loved celestion 442's. I have pondered the FR option for a while, and the Mark Audio drivers seem to be such amazing value and quality, I am opting for my first speaker build.

I am looking for a "end game" build, something to do justice to the F5, and have settled on the 12p's as the most likely candidate. I love the warmer sound of a paper driver and a respectable bass response.

My indecision is which Pensil enclosure to build, and the pro's and cons of the super Pensil for the 12p. Is the general consensus to build bigger if you can, because it is simply the better option? Or is there an appreciable loss of efficiency with the larger box?

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.

I doubt there'd be little, if any, discernible difference in efficiency between the 2 variants of the Pensil design, or for that matter any comparably competent MLTL. The Supers will mostly deliver deeper LF extension, and of course take up considerably more floor space.


As for "end game" projects, well, wait and see - how many amps did you have before the F5?
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Old 30th May 2013, 11:28 PM   #235
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erm something in the order of 20 I would imagine. And lots of different speakers. But children have forced my hand, I no longer have the time to twiddle away endlessly with mods, and crossovers, and Dacs. The F5 is good enough to stop me questing for a few years, the Red Baron dac "ditto", the speakers need to be in the same league. I am ready for a break from searching and it's time to dedicate time to simply being satisfied.

Honestly - promise - here's hoping
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Old 31st May 2013, 04:38 PM   #236
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Originally Posted by lorienblack View Post
erm something in the order of 20 I would imagine. And lots of different speakers. But children have forced my hand, I no longer have the time to twiddle away endlessly with mods, and crossovers, and Dacs. The F5 is good enough to stop me questing for a few years, the Red Baron dac "ditto", the speakers need to be in the same league. I am ready for a break from searching and it's time to dedicate time to simply being satisfied.

Honestly - promise - here's hoping
im curious to know the other amps youv build...
Ive yet to build a enclosure for the alpair, but I definitely thinks that the midrange is good and definitely fun to listen to, but your end game driver, maybe yes indeed for a midrange point of view.
I will build next week my pair of standmounts. I will do a ultimate challenge for midrange quality, not bass and highs, but mid between the a12p, tannoy red 15 inch, coral beta 8, fostex fe 127 en, audax pr170mo. It should be definitely interesting, but from what I heard, the alpair is not bad at all.

I think you should build a super pensil to ensure maximum bass output imo if you only want to use ONE dricver and are a purist or something...
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Old 31st May 2013, 05:04 PM   #237
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Lorien - if I was a betting man, I'd wager a beverage or 3 that the A12P wouldn't disappoint. As noted previously, so far I've only heard them in two designs, the MarKen12 and the SuperPensils - designed with 2 quite different goals - and the large box definitely unleashes more of the driver's potential.

Just be aware of the extended break-in period of all Mark's drivers.( at least several hundred hours)

edit: Murph - sorry that I can't recall if you've discussed the condition of your A12Ps, but the above certainly applies to your anticipated "shoot-out" between the listed drivers.
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Old 31st May 2013, 05:13 PM   #238
mp9 is offline mp9  United States
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Originally Posted by lorienblack View Post
My indecision is which Pensil enclosure to build, and the pro's and cons of the super Pensil for the 12p. Is the general consensus to build bigger if you can, because it is simply the better option? Or is there an appreciable loss of efficiency with the larger box?

Many thanks in advance for your consideration.
Iirc, Std Pencil 12P design is slightly better at BSC then the Super, and efficiency remains about the same for the two.
I tried to answer a similar post back on page 23, post #224 Alpair 12P Gen. 2 (paper cone) Interesting statement from Scotts friend Colin. However keep in mind Colin has tried a number of one off designs with different design goals and may not necessarily be saying the Super Pencil isn't a good design for it's intended purpose, idk? -
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Originally Posted by Toppsy View Post
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I know Scott is not in favour of the larger SuperPencils for this driver and only did the design due to member pressure. -
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Old 31st May 2013, 05:28 PM   #239
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Scott does not especially care for the larger box. However, remember it wasn't designed for me, it was designed for other people, so my opinion (such as it is) is not relevant. I stand by the design since it will do what it says on the tin, & everyone who has built it thus far, to the best of my knowledge, has liked it. Personally, I prefer the balance of compromises in the smaller box, but as I say, that's just me.

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Old 31st May 2013, 07:46 PM   #240
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by Scottmoose View Post
Scott does not especially care for the larger box. However, remember it wasn't designed for me, it was designed for other people, so my opinion (such as it is) is not relevant. I stand by the design since it will do what it says on the tin, & everyone who has built it thus far, to the best of my knowledge, has liked it. Personally, I prefer the balance of compromises in the smaller box, but as I say, that's just me.
So Chris is not the only one inclined to 3rd party self references - it goes to show you how much attention he (Chris) has been paying or remembers - wasn't aware of that. The smaller Pensil12 is still not a tiny box
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