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Old 4th January 2012, 05:05 PM   #11
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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It's one thing to respond to Mark's invitations for feedback, but he must be getting tired of being second guessed on aspects of his designs into which he's invested much time and treasure.

Yes, some of the TB or Fostex cast / machined baskets and magnet casings are pretty to look at and "stiff" etc, but that alone guarantees nothing. One of the most unlistenable FR drivers I've ever heard was the Fostex FE138ESR - physically gorgeous with a lot of high tech materials and design - for me the "cheap stamped frame" FF125WK is much more musical.
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Old 4th January 2012, 05:54 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by larryldspkr View Post
The plastic basket is definitely the weak link here! If you place the driver face down you can rotate the magnet from side to side (on the baskets with fins) quite flexible!!
I am curious to see what will happen to these over time, maybe my grandson can reply to this at a much later date! lol
All in all they are still decent drivers, I would have no problem paying more for a cast basket like the TB W4-1320, these are VERY rigid units and are built to last!

My two cents
Larry
OK, so there is a twisting flexibility to the frames. I can't think of a condition that would create that kind of movement in normal use. How does that translate to a forward and aft flex?

How rigid is it in the plane of cone movement? That would be the real test.

And what is the resonance frequency and the amount of resonance of that frame? Those are the real questions.
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Old 4th January 2012, 05:56 PM   #13
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BTW, I have a pair of Audax midrange drivers that have an injection molded polymer basket. They are among the best and sweetest mids I have ever heard.
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Old 4th January 2012, 05:58 PM   #14
badman is offline badman  United States
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Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
It's one thing to respond to Mark's invitations for feedback, but he must be getting tired of being second guessed on aspects of his designs into which he's invested much time and treasure.
Features sell. It's listed as a high point on sales sheets to have a cast frame, and people take that and run with it to mean that it's key to the sonic performance. A proper basket a la Markaudio is great, but many just have bought into the marketing as the only truth. Even stamped steel frames can be very good, check out the very cool frame design on the CSS trio 12 for the "right way" to do a steel frame.

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-...ata-051009.pdf

The same people see markaudio cones and think "Yeah but won't they have really nasty breakups because they're metal?" One-dimensional thinking.
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Old 4th January 2012, 06:18 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by larryldspkr View Post
....All in all they are still decent drivers, I would have no problem paying more for a cast basket like the TB W4-1320, these are VERY rigid units and are built to last!

My two cents
Larry
Rigid is not everything. Damping is. Rigid transmits vibrations. The motor needs to be held firmly in position in respect to the flange but needs to be as soft as possible to damp vibrations. Metal frames ring, polymer frames don't.

Bob
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Old 4th January 2012, 06:50 PM   #16
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by Bob Brines View Post
Rigid is not everything. Damping is. Rigid transmits vibrations. The motor needs to be held firmly in position in respect to the flange but needs to be as soft as possible to damp vibrations. Metal frames ring, polymer frames don't.

Bob

And as I think you've pointed out on this topic before - once you actually mount the driver in an enclosure (or even on an OB/naked frame), much of that resonant energy will be damped by the termination - and if you're still concerned, a little DuctSeal or plumber's rope caulking can help.


Frankly I'd be far more concerned about immediate reflections back to/through the cone from large profile frame support members than resonances due to the material from which they're fabricated
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Old 4th January 2012, 07:00 PM   #17
ODougbo is offline ODougbo  United States
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Originally Posted by chrisb View Post
termination - and if you're still concerned, a little DuctSeal or plumber's rope caulking can help.
http://www.amazon.com/Frost-F4-Morti...9&sr=8-2-fkmr0
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Old 4th January 2012, 07:11 PM   #18
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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Originally Posted by badman View Post
Features sell.
or maybe it's the net result?
Quote:

It's listed as a high point on sales sheets to have a cast frame, and people take that and run with it to mean that it's key to the sonic performance. A proper basket a la Markaudio is great, but many just have bought into the marketing as the only truth.
No question the lack of opportunities to audition type of audio products discussed herein - i. e DIY in general, and speakers specifically - means that at some point the assumed exaggeration of marketing copy and negative bloviations of forum posters who may not have even heard the products need to be set aside and a leap of faith is required. Of course that sometimes means crow for dinner, and other times the smug self-satisfaction of knowing that "well, call me a bad-asked Honey Badger, 'cause I don't give a crap - it works for me"

Quote:
Even stamped steel frames can be very good, check out the very cool frame design on the CSS trio 12 for the "right way" to do a steel frame.

http://www.creativesound.ca/pdf/CSS-...ata-051009.pdf
one of Mark's great little bargains is the EL166 woofer for Bob at CSS - "cheap stamped frames" certainly still be smartly designed and be one part of an excellent sounding speaker
Quote:

The same people see markaudio cones and think "Yeah but won't they have really nasty breakups because they're metal?" One-dimensional thinking.
Yes, we fool ourselves if we think we're immune to getting caught up in that - having heard some nasty DIY projects with aluminum cone drivers in the past I certainly had my preconceptions when I first auditioned Mark's little Alpair5 a few years ago.
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Old 4th January 2012, 07:14 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by larryldspkr View Post
The plastic basket is definitely the weak link here! If you place the driver face down you can rotate the magnet from side to side (on the baskets with fins) quite flexible!!
I just tried that experiment. I'd actually have to bolt the driver down to ensure that the (very slight) wobble was not me lifting the whole driver. If it is flex, it is less than what you get when you twist an FE167 basket from the front.

dave
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Old 4th January 2012, 09:03 PM   #20
chrisb is offline chrisb  Canada
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we buy this stuff by the 1lb block
Ideal Industries - Duct Seal

Click the image to open in full size.

This stuff will last (figuratively) eons without degradation or drying/hardening - sometimes staying soft is better
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