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Old 31st August 2011, 12:50 AM   #11
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I understand my equipment is sub-par, but mainly i use it to confirm what i am hearing...and that is part of the reason i did not post my response graphs in the first place.
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Old 31st August 2011, 12:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverhairbp View Post
I cannot agree more strongly with Mark regarding recommended testing equipment. A serious hobbyist needs the benefit of good test equipment as much as a professional designer. As we strive for the best sound we can get, regardless of whether we're professional designers or amateurs, we should use test equipment that is at least as good as the results we expect. Using lesser equipment just makes the job of tuning that much longer and can lead to non-repeatable test results (read: "frustration").

But this is probably best addressed in a different thread, eh?
Hi Silver,
Many thanks for this understanding. Agreed, its a frustration for hobbyist's wanting to experiment more by having to pay US$hundreds/thousands on a decent mic and associated gear. I don't want to put off guys from experimenting and testing, just flagging up the risks of over-reliance of data generated from low cost hobby measuring gear.

Agreed, we gone off topic (apologies for me contributing). I'll gladly set up a new thread and migrate the mentioned posts if guys would like this.

Thanks
Mark.
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Old 31st August 2011, 12:59 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
I would say this agrees with my listenings of the 10.2. I have some 7.3's on the way, hoping to get, more soundstage depth (width on 10.2 was fine), and more extended top end while maitaining tonal balance (less directivity). Runnning the 10.2's on tube amps seems to improve the dpeth issue, but this makes sense in keeping with tubes ability to make individual instruments bloom/standout somewhat in their place in the soundstage.
I thought it might be cool to quote myself. I wanted to be clear that my comments about the high frequency response did not pertain to the extension, but rather the balance from top to bottom. I believe that you can get very good balance all the way up to, or close to 20kHz. Unfortunately, I believe that in order to do so, you have some loss in the areas of imaging and sound-stage due to the towing in of the drivers. If you are willing to give up some top end, you gain what is near perfect side to side sound-stage and imaging. I believe this makes sense when considering directivity as it has been explained to me, and for this reason, I am getting my third pair of MA drivers , the 7.3's. In the end, the previous sentence says it all. Oh yeah, the opinions expressed here represent only the poster in question, and in no way represent the truth or even fact.

Last edited by buzzforb; 31st August 2011 at 01:01 AM.
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Old 31st August 2011, 01:06 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by chuyler1 View Post
I understand my equipment is sub-par, but mainly i use it to confirm what i am hearing...and that is part of the reason i did not post my response graphs in the first place.
Hi Chulyer,
Thanks for your understanding, its appreciated. Apologies as I meant no criticism, just the nature of the measurement debate can end up killing allot of my time that I need for driver design while I try to sort out all the questions.

I think there is a need for a separate practical thread as a sort of practical guide on home measurements. Not sure if I can spare the time but I do some thinking on how to help.

Thanks
Mark.
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Old 31st August 2011, 01:17 AM   #15
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Default Measuring speakers in-room. Practical considerations.

Hi guys,
I've migrated the measurement posts to this thread.
Thanks
Mark.
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Old 31st August 2011, 03:35 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by buzzforb View Post
I thought it might be cool to quote myself. I wanted to be clear that my comments about the high frequency response did not pertain to the extension, but rather the balance from top to bottom. I believe that you can get very good balance all the way up to, or close to 20kHz. Unfortunately, I believe that in order to do so, you have some loss in the areas of imaging and sound-stage due to the towing in of the drivers. If you are willing to give up some top end, you gain what is near perfect side to side sound-stage and imaging. I believe this makes sense when considering directivity as it has been explained to me, and for this reason, I am getting my third pair of MA drivers , the 7.3's. In the end, the previous sentence says it all. Oh yeah, the opinions expressed here represent only the poster in question, and in no way represent the truth or even fact.
Hi Buzz, Guys,
Interesting comments.

From my perspective, as a driver designer/maker, I'm trying to make Full-Rangers deliver the widest possible set of frequencies with wide dispersion characteristics. That poses allot of technical challenges. Likely impossible to make drivers that 100% suite every application and individual taste. So I try to make drivers that are relativity flexible in their application with various box designs and room settings.

Typically, from most box designs and room environments, there will be some audible bass gain. Once we factor in the driver to box match, amp, source and room, there's so many factors that its near impossible to accurately predict what a driver will do beyond its anechoic sweep test performance.

As a guide, reckon on a Full-Ranger delivering 80% to 90% of its anechoic test chamber performance once its in a box, in a room. Mother nature and the law of thermo-dynamics will always apply; there's bound to be losses once we start converting from one form of energy to another; And when we re-direct a form of energy.

A typical outcome for many newer Diyers once they start using Full-Rangers is their surprise on getting some useful bass, but struggle with the top end. No surprise given the nature of the losses, so that's why I made many of my models with a rising response in the mid-highs. At least guys got some choice and could adjust to tow-in to get a balance that suites their tastes across most of the speaker's output.

Now things have moved on these last few months due to me listening to the feedback from you guys. There were a large number of requests for flatter and wider frequency delivery. Hence the new Gen.3 CHR-70' and Alpair 7's go further to meet these needs. Likely these drivers will need less tow-in/out than the previous models as there's more range at your disposal.

Conversely, there were a number of requests for "roll-off" drivers. Some guys think of high range output as "sharp and peaky", sometimes associated with cone break-up; Hence the production of the Gen. 2 CHP and the Alpair 6M drivers, the 6M design favouring its use in near-field applications.

When it comes to the bigger drivers (Alp's 10, 12 and 14), the complexities of balancing range output from the increased cone acreage becomes greater. Chuyler's comment in post No.3 are interesting:

"When listening on-axis it adds a slightly abrasive sound to trumpets and puts them sort of in your face. Switching to off-axis ~10 degrees removes the abrasiveness but sacrifices cymbals which don't cut through like they should and are slightly muted."

This is a likely outcome from me extending the range and dynamics of the Gen. 2 Alp10 over its predecessor. As I push the performance envelop of the these larger Full-Rangers, they are becoming more resonance sensitive. These drivers will demand good box optimisation, room positioning, good source material and well matched amplification. Once we get into deploying bigger low-mass cone and power-train technology, everything about the driver's performance becomes more sensitive and demanding. But that what makes this hobby so very interesting; By presenting Diyers with drivers that help push the boundaries of what is further achievable in home builds.

Alpair 12 Gen. 2 is next; new ultra-low profile cone, extended low mass coil, new Matsubara san rear suspension, new ultra-thin Lu Yi Ping front suspension, revised frame seals, revised magnet/motor structure, remains a semi-free-to-air, single mechanically controlled power-train unit. If I can get it work, this one's going to sort out the Diyer Men from the Diyer Boys.

Have fun!

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 31st August 2011 at 03:42 AM.
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Old 31st August 2011, 04:07 AM   #17
hobbers is offline hobbers  Canada
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Default Alpair 14?

Hi Mark,

Reading your last post, was there a hint there of what's coming or a miss print? An Alpair 14 in the works?

When it comes to the bigger drivers (Alp's 10, 12 and 14), the complexities of balancing range output from the increased cone acreage becomes greater. Chuyler's comment in post No.3 are interesting:

Bernie
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Old 31st August 2011, 04:12 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbers View Post
Hi Mark,
Reading your last post, was there a hint there of what's coming or a miss print? An Alpair 14 in the works?
When it comes to the bigger drivers (Alp's 10, 12 and 14), the complexities of balancing range output from the increased cone acreage becomes greater. Chuyler's comment in post No.3 are interesting:
Bernie
Hello Bernie,
Yes, we are in a very early design stage for a Type 14 driver. The time-line for the first prototype is some 6 months away. But the Gen. 2 Alpair 12 is much closer. Hope to have prototypes working in the next 2 to 3 weeks. Will start a new thread to seek feedback.
Thx
Mark.
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Old 31st August 2011, 04:21 AM   #19
hobbers is offline hobbers  Canada
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Mark,

Is the 14 being designed for use as a woofer or fullrange? If a woofer then it will be very compatible with the Alpair7 as a two way?
Dave is working on a 20 sided Mar-ken7t enclosure for me and were talking about doing a 20 sided woofer. Will this driver be useable for such a design?

Bernie
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Old 31st August 2011, 03:28 PM   #20
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When it comes to measuring the room, it shouldn't really matter even if you're using a Radio Shack SPL meter... should it? I mean, he's just trying to see what changes occure. He's not after accurate results, just confirmation of the changes occuring.

Having said that, I'm not sure his measurements help anyone other than himself, in the bass region. Every room is different. Room modes cannot be shared on a forum.
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