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Old 26th July 2011, 11:14 PM   #11
infinia is offline infinia  United States
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Mybe the posters think Youtube vids would be boring if you could NOT see action Vs a static cone that sounds only as good as the video recording and the viewers playback allow.
BTW the linked clip sound is not half as bad as most ive seen
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Last edited by infinia; 26th July 2011 at 11:16 PM.
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Old 7th August 2011, 10:07 PM   #12
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Mark,

I don't know if the quality of this video is good enough for you to tell but if so do you think that I am pushing these too hard? The distorted sound is due to the microphone on the camera being overloaded. They sounded clean the entire time I did not hear any untoward noises like thumps or cracks. The enclosures are tuned at around 40Hz. I have since added second order highpass at 40Hz to provide some protection.

‪MiniConsole Speaker Enclosure Beta Test‬‏ - YouTube
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Last edited by mashaffer; 7th August 2011 at 10:10 PM.
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Old 8th August 2011, 12:33 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mashaffer View Post
Mark,

I don't know if the quality of this video is good enough for you to tell but if so do you think that I am pushing these too hard? The distorted sound is due to the microphone on the camera being overloaded. They sounded clean the entire time I did not hear any untoward noises like thumps or cracks. The enclosures are tuned at around 40Hz. I have since added second order highpass at 40Hz to provide some protection.
‪MiniConsole Speaker Enclosure Beta Test‬‏ - YouTube
Hi M,
Good video and many thanks for showing it to me and the rest of the guys. I much welcome this feedback and hope other diyers follow your lead - thanks again.

These are Gen.1 Alpair 10's. How long have you been using them? Roughly, can you give me an idea of number of hours operation?

Looking at the video and listening to the style of music, the drivers are being pushed a bit harder than I'd recommend. I'd say you're right on the limit and/or a bit over what the drivers can safely handle. So there's some risk of deformation on the cone's outer profile. The Gen.1 drivers are more vulnerable than the Gen.2's as their early cones were partly hand-made using a softer mixed alloy. So i'd urge you to ease back on the volume. Might also be worth adding a bit more damping inside the box.

Your box looks to be around 15 litres? Assuming you've got this size to help get a port tuning frequency of 40Hz. That's going to reduce the power-handling capability of the set-up so your wise to add a filter to help limit to LF output.

Cheers
Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 8th August 2011 at 01:57 AM.
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Old 8th August 2011, 11:39 AM   #14
Candisa is offline Candisa  Belgium
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I've seen this comment and video on the dutch "zelfbouwaudio.nl" forum (HenkJan from Juoiga).
It is pretty logical that a fullrange driver, design to play well up to the higher octaves accurately, isn't meant to do high excursions, but...

Some fullrange drivers, including most MarkAudio's have a rather high "x-max"-number in their specs. This is probably what people make think they can handle these long strokes, not knowing that 'x-max' is only determined by the coil and gap, not by the suspension and strength of the cone (which can never be high enough if the cone needs to be as light and thin as possible)...

Maybe it's an idea to include a "maximum recommended one-way excursion" in the specification sheet? This might lower the attractiveness of your speakers for some people, but that's exactly the kind of people that is planning to drive the speakers way too hard and shouting all over the internet "CRAPPY SPEAKERS, they blow already well below spec'd limits!!!", so who cares?

The people that want to buy fullrange speakers to use properly won't mind this "extra limit" and probably even respect the honesty of the manufacturer (you!).

Isabelle
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Old 8th August 2011, 12:21 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Candisa View Post
I've seen this comment and video on the dutch "zelfbouwaudio.nl" forum (HenkJan from Juoiga).
It is pretty logical that a fullrange driver, design to play well up to the higher octaves accurately, isn't meant to do high excursions, but...

Some fullrange drivers, including most MarkAudio's have a rather high "x-max"-number in their specs. This is probably what people make think they can handle these long strokes, not knowing that 'x-max' is only determined by the coil and gap, not by the suspension and strength of the cone (which can never be high enough if the cone needs to be as light and thin as possible)...

Maybe it's an idea to include a "maximum recommended one-way excursion" in the specification sheet? This might lower the attractiveness of your speakers for some people, but that's exactly the kind of people that is planning to drive the speakers way too hard and shouting all over the internet "CRAPPY SPEAKERS, they blow already well below spec'd limits!!!", so who cares?

The people that want to buy fullrange speakers to use properly won't mind this "extra limit" and probably even respect the honesty of the manufacturer (you!).

Isabelle
Hi Isabelle,
Some good comments, thanks for posting.

I made several posts on the difference between the mechanical X max and usable excursion. I tried expressing the usable excursion in mm, but this confused the less experienced Diyers who didn't quite understand excursion.

So, I've reverted back to asking Diyer's for restraint when using ALL Full-rangers. Also to check out their systems, particularly BR and vented boxes that more easily allow drivers to un-load below the port tuning frequency.

It much an educational and promotional process to have Diyers think and plan their projects more in a more comprehensive way. Key factors are:

1 - System and room requirements (bigger rooms usually need bigger systems)
2 - Amp power matching to drivers. (just enough power and no more).
3 - Box optimisation. Is the box design a good match for the driver, especially under moderately-high loads? Cones should hardly move.
4 - Running drivers carefully, especially during the early use periods.

Cheers

Mark.
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Old 8th August 2011, 02:18 PM   #16
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To your point #2, don't you think it would be better to state the power in two ways? Suggest minimum power, recommended power? Minimum power would be that power necessary to drive the speakers to a pleasing level, recommended power would be the power necessary for common use including some headroom for program peaks. Are you sure you want to suggest maximum power? After all, a LOT of damage can be done to speakers when amps go into clipping and send out all kinds of silly signals. Better to have 100 times the power to keep it clean rather than twice the power and go into clipping on peaks.

BTW, I use Herron M-150s on bipolar FR125SRs, one per side. That's 150+ watts into two of those drivers. The sound is clean and I get great audio performance. No issue about clipping or other driver-damaging distortion. I also use a sub on each side each with their own M-150 1st order crossover @ 200hz. There's a 62mf cap across the rear-firing FR so it's not running full range. I recognize the softer clipping of tube equipment compared to ss gear, but why take a risk of any distortion-related damage?

I like the other points. They are important, especially to those that don't have much experience in the diy space. Dave (planet10) has a great site for some of this kind of information and is always available for help, but not everyone knows to take advantage of all the resources at their disposal. I don't think there is any upper limit on the amount of information and guidance that can be provided for diy'ers or for those interested in going beyond diy systems.

Providing all this information can also benefit manufacturers. Warranty issues and questions related to proper use can be referenced. This could provide a better customer relationship.
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Old 8th August 2011, 03:13 PM   #17
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Hi Silver,
For experienced Diyer's using larger amps is less of an issue, but most of the problems arise with Full-range users who aren't so familiar with these drivers needs.

90% of driver damage incidents reported to me over the years involves bigger amps. Its a potential lethal situation for the driver unless the user is ubber careful with the volume control

You'd have to go someway to clip an amp on a full range driver like Alp10's, really be closer to flee amp power to run the risk of clipping.

So no, big amps remain a major factor in full-range driver failure.

Of all the Full-range makers, I think I'm the only one who's supplying advice and help direct to end users on an almost daily basis. I'm also listening and taking note of feedback from Diyers and most anyone with an genuine interest in this hobby.

Thx

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 8th August 2011 at 03:18 PM.
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Old 8th August 2011, 09:37 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by markaudio View Post
Hi Guys,
A short post to remind you all that the Alpair 10.2 is not a woofer. I recently received 2 reports (including a video) showing Alpair 10's under high loads.

Please take a look at this Youtube link:

‪DSCI0049.AVI‬‏ - YouTube

In this Youtube video, the drivers are clearly being overdriven. The risk of cone edge deformation is very high. If you're playing your Alpair's like those in this Youtube video, TURN THE VOLUME DOWN. Apart from the physical damage to the drivers, the quality of the musical output will be poor. Distortion and doppler effects will be audible.

Please remember guys, ALL full-rangers are low load drivers, especially those with ultra high efficiencies. Efficient box designs can deliver good quality musical bass without having to murder the drivers.

Cheers

Mark.
I don't know what he thinks he is doing but that is just brutally killing the driver. Any FR driver driven like that is a sure way to failure.

Having said that, what is the comfortable XO for the helper woofer for Alp10.2?

Best Regards,
-James
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Old 8th August 2011, 09:58 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
I don't know what he thinks he is doing but that is just brutally killing the driver. Any FR driver driven like that is a sure way to failure.
Having said that, what is the comfortable XO for the helper woofer for Alp10.2?
Best Regards,
-James
Hi James,
Agreed, it did surprise me to see the experienced Diyers in this particular video over-working the Full-rangers. To be fair to these guys, I've done it myself, given the drivers a bit extra but the sound quality deteriorates so there's no benefit in over-driving any driver.

I'm trying to put together a video showing a "typical" operation. I'll need a bit more time as I'm quite busy. Also, I'm trying to work out ways of making the presentation clear and useful.

In the meantime, the general rule for a well optimised driver and box is the cone will only slightly move while delivering low frequencies.

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 8th August 2011 at 10:02 PM.
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Old 8th August 2011, 10:00 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megasat16 View Post
Having said that, what is the comfortable XO for the helper woofer for Alp10.2?
That is going to depend on many factors. Assuming you mean XO to a subwoofer:

1. Box design;
2. Room response;
3. "helper woofer" type and box design;
4. Required listending volume;
5. etc.
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