next gen Alpair 12.3 diy community development

[mp9]

Originally Posted by markaudio

may be possible to make a 6.5" uber low mass paper cone, less than 500 micron thick, with a wide stable profile......

We have a meeting next week so lets see what happens.

Cheers

Mark.

...keeping my fingers X'ed

[wushuliu]

Originally Posted by planet10

Generally i have liked paper. Mark has redifined what can be done with metal.

I'll comment on Mark's metal vrs paper after i get a chance to hear the A6.2s

dave

Any comments on this yet, Dave? You've been cooking those guys for a while now!

[wushuliu]

Originally Posted by markaudio

Cheers Scott,

There is a "chink" of light re the +90 dB classic 6.5" paper coned full range drivers. I have a good friend in HK, Michael works at a cone makers. We reckon it may be possible to make a 6.5" uber low mass paper cone, less than 500 micron thick, with a wide stable profile......If we can pull this trick off, his boss said he may be willing to invest in the project and run the production. They'd build the driver and use it in finished systems, I design the driver and sell it to Diyers and small builders. We have a meeting next week so lets see what happens.

Cheers

Mark.

Fingers crossed. As good as they are, I prefer the paper drivers (EL70, A6P) over the metal cones.

[planet10]

Originally Posted by wushuliu

Any comments on this yet, Dave? You've been cooking those guys for a while now!

Unfortunately they are sitting waiting. paid for drivers keep jumping them in the queue.

dave

[zman01]

Originally Posted by Scottmoose

Now that could be very interesting. I'll look forward to seeing how that pans out.

Originally Posted by chrisb

so say we all

Yes, and all the best!

[rcdaniel]

In response to the original question, some challenging yet achievable objectives might be:

Sonic: Alpair 10.2 with improved dynamics and and composure (ie. the common benefits of increased cone size, vis-a-vis the 10.2)

Practical: efficiency of > 90 db efficiency (not slightly under), preferably up ~ 92 db. This would make it useable with some of the better SET amps in a wider range of systems/rooms.

Other: Special additions using perhaps paper cones and AlNiCo magnets - this would not be important to my buying decision (though I would buy one if avail).

Cheers,
Raymond.

[planet10]

Originally Posted by rcdaniel

Practical: efficiency of > 90 db efficiency (not slightly under), preferably up ~ 92 db. This would make it useable with some of the better SET amps in a wider range of systems/rooms.

Alpair selection...

3.5 watts in my big room we only started noting (small) issues with the 84.5 dB A7.

dave

PS: note that i updated the thread title.

[rcdaniel]

Originally Posted by planet10

3.5 watts in my big room we only started noting (small) issues with the 84.5 dB A7.

Hi Dave,

As always, thank you for sharing your experience; people here, myself included, very much appreciate your substantial ongoing contributions.

I am not sure how significantly your listening experiences translate to my wants / objectives. I do not know the size of your room (Edit: just got some idea from a thread that was linked from the linked thread!), the music that was listened to, or how loudly.

You - ant it seems that many listeners on your continent - describe music reproduction largely using visual cues and things that can be explained using visual analogies, eg. sound-staging, detail, DDR/resolution etc. I most frequently read comments using these visual descriptions. This is not a criticism(!); it is an observation... and there are likely a number of reasons for this (convenience, cultural preferences, driver strengths...)

Visual aspects matter to me as well, but are less so than musical flow / nuance, tonal presence / texture (not "warmth", per se), poise, balance and an absence of aberrations that return me to being consciously aware I am listing to a reproduction system (ie. bass modulation of other frequencies, gross compression and glare). Most importantly, when I listen to music I simply want to experience it - I don't want to think / analyse / critique and I don't need to recreate an event.

I also prefer to listen at lowish to moderate levels with high quality, low power amps. That the Mark Audio drivers seem to work adequately with lower power amps, perhaps their musical communication / presence is excellent at lower levels, therefore not requiring loud volumes for satisfaction (which I would like!). But, I am not convinced (yet) that amps with power as low as 3.5W will cut it with any Mark Audio driver in a moderate sized room.

Sorry for meandering OT. In short, I would like a Mark Audio driver that could meet my needs. From the comments I have read - most of which are (very) positive - I am not yet confident one - in this case the current A12 - can. I hope one day I can be confident...

Cheers,
Raymond

[planet10]

Originally Posted by rcdaniel

I do not know the size of your room (Edit: just got some idea from a thread that was linked from the linked thread!), the music that was listened to, or how loudly.

Room is described (with 3D visualizations & pictures) here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs...ing-space.html

We typically listen at levels of 80-85 dB at the listening position (less late in the evening). The last session including some classical, jazz, rock, and the obligatory Loreena McKennet.

Visual aspects matter to me as well, but are less so than musical flow / nuance, tonal presence / texture (not "warmth", per se), poise, balance and an absence of aberrations that return me to being consciously aware I am listing to a reproduction system (ie. bass modulation of other frequencies, gross compression and glare). Most importantly, when I listen to music I simply want to experience it - I don't want to think / analyse / critique and I don't need to recreate an event.

You want to get lost in the music, to get an emotional connection with the music.

The term DDR is a physically definable term i use that is the key to many of the things you describe. More DDR gives you more of the very subtle clues which define a space, clarify the nature of an instrument or voice, sync the timing and flow of the music.

In short, I would like a Mark Audio driver that could meet my needs. From the comments I have read - most of which are (very) positive - I am not yet confident one - in this case the current A12 - can. I hope one day I can be confident...

One can just start out with one of the modestly priced drivers and get a good taste for what the more expensive ones offer. There are no words that can really adequately explain what something sounds like.

Remember, just like cookies, it is hard to just have one. Free yourself of anxiety, start on a budget, get a taste. Everone always needs a 2nd set of speakers, or has a friend/relation that has a need for your learning experiences.

dave

[rcdaniel]

We typically listen at levels of 80-85 dB at the listening position (less late in the evening). The last session including some classical, jazz, rock, and the obligatory Loreena McKennet.

Thanks for that Dave. I probably listen at similar levels; occasionally louder but often more quietly in the late evening... Harold Budd, Loscil, Stars of The Lid, Yui Onodera, Marconi Union, Beautiful Schizophonic and other quiet music while reading.

You want to get lost in the music, to get an emotional connection with the music.

Yes, very often. People's emotional cues differ, so I rarely mention it and instead try to understand and describe the sonic cues that lead to this as adequately as I can. But, as you go on to say, we cannot adequately describe music - or its reproduction - in language. As soon as you try, it is lost. Which brings me to my next point, "experiencing" (or "awareness) is a little different to emotional connection, but that is not for the forum

The term DDR is a physically definable term i use that is the key to many of the things you describe. More DDR gives you more of the very subtle clues which define a space, clarify the nature of an instrument or voice, sync the timing and flow of the music.

So, it is like minimising self-noise to reveal true resolution, rather than sonic enhancement / shaping / artificing that gives the initial impression of hyper clarity or resolution, yet we sense is artificial, in time. An absence rather than an addition. Zen, in a way. BTW, I am rather sensitive to "enhancements", which is why I think the current A12 may not be ideal for me. Thus my comments that I would prefer a presentation closer to the A10.2.

One can just start out with one of the modestly priced drivers and get a good taste for what the more expensive ones offer. There are no words that can really adequately explain what something sounds like.

Remember, just like cookies, it is hard to just have one. Free yourself of anxiety, start on a budget, get a taste. Everone always needs a 2nd set of speakers, or has a friend/relation that has a need for your learning experiences.

I understand what you are saying Dave - there is no substitute for experience; the wider the exposure the better. However, my DIY interest is more in amps rather than 'speakers, so I will not want to churn them over too often. I am happy to research as best I can, purchase well (but not crazy expensive), then tune.

That said, I would like an intimate non-critical system for the study / man-space, so may try a small Mark Audio driver driven by a 6L6 in SE Triode (or 6V6 SE in triode / ultralinear). Low cost and should sound decent in a small space. Oh, and then there is the bedroom... Ah, I see your point about cookies!

Thanks again Dave.

Cheers,
Raymond.