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Old 3rd February 2011, 06:01 PM   #1
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Default A question from a beginner

Hey!

I read here: http://www.sp01.jp/Alpair%2010%20Gen.2_0[1].pdf
It says:
Quote:
Running in procedure:
This driver is designed to deliver optimum emittance from 350 hours onwards
1 - DONʼT USE ANY ARTIFICIALLY GENERATED SOUND!
2 - First 30 hours, use very low volumes. Hours 30 to 100, gradually increase volume but
remaining gentle
3 - 100 to 350 hours, add some bass to carefully extend the suspensions.
4 - Remain gentle, sensible use of this driver will yield pleasing acoustic results.

Peak excursion:
The power-train of this driver is capable of shunting +28 litres of air close to its mechanical
limit. The power-train of the Alpair 10 Gen. 2 has a mechanical X Max (1 way) of 8.5-mm
(in flux). **Only 6.0-mm of this feature should be used to handle non-linear peakshock loads, for example the brief roll of a drum beat. For optimum travel of this
power-train, linear loads NOT exceeding 4.0-mm is within its capability for a single load
period not to exceed 30 MINUTES. The normal driven load should remain with 3.8-mm.
For a drivers in this class, this cone travel is generous.Together with a well matched
cabinet, you'll get a very nice bass. Please DON'T treat them like rock un roll woofer as
they arenʼt designed to take persistent high loads.
I think the run-in procedure is a little strange. Why be so extremely cautious?
I've been looking at the Alpair 10.2 a little, but this text scares me off. Yeah, i could live with the run-in procedure, play acoustic background music the first week or two.
I currently have a pair of Mar-Kel70 cabinets and i think the bass is good. But i'd like maybe a little more and a little deeper. And be able to play a little louder. I guess the Alpair 10.2 does everything, since it's a larger driver. But i like to push the drivers quite far and that text says that i shouldn't play music which gives more than 3.8mm excursion. Why only use like 40% of xmax?

Let's say if i listen to some bass-heavy songs for around half an hour, using around 7-8mm xmax. How would the driver be damaged by that?

How much would the Alpair 10.2 suffer from having some sort of cloth grille in front of it? My brother has a cat and i'm getting a cousin in march this year so... Protection would be needed....
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Old 3rd February 2011, 06:21 PM   #2
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Quote:
I think the run-in procedure is a little strange. Why be so extremely cautious?
Call it common sense. If you bought yourself a brand new car, would you immediately thrash it on your first time out?
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Old 3rd February 2011, 06:31 PM   #3
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Well, some people say that engines should indeed be thrashed properly I don't buy into that though ..

I am however curious about how the burning process works. As I understand it - and I don't recall if this is my imagination or if I read it somewhere - is that Mark Audio drivers have very thin and light and fragile cones. The cones aren't supposed to flex. The suspension however is supposed to flex. Now if the driver is brand new, the suspension might be less flexible than it is going to be after a few billion cycles ...

If we start applying power to the whole driver, cone and suspension, with the suspension stiffer than it should be, then I imagine that the cone would start to flex - and maybe enough to deform it.

Don't know ... This is speculation.
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Old 3rd February 2011, 07:57 PM   #4
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Ah, you might be right with the run-in procedure...

But what about the other part, about peak excursion?
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Old 4th February 2011, 12:17 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kristleifur View Post
Well, some people say that engines should indeed be thrashed properly I don't buy into that though.
I am however curious about how the burning process works. As I understand it - and I don't recall if this is my imagination or if I read it somewhere - is that Mark Audio drivers have very thin and light and fragile cones. The cones aren't supposed to flex. The suspension however is supposed to flex. Now if the driver is brand new, the suspension might be less flexible than it is going to be after a few billion cycles ...
If we start applying power to the whole driver, cone and suspension, with the suspension stiffer than it should be, then I imagine that the cone would start to flex - and maybe enough to deform it.
Don't know ... This is speculation.
Hi kristleifur,
Scott and you are correct by not "thrashing" anything mechanical when new as its tolerances will be tight. That's means Anything from a Jet Engine to a transducer will need time to reach its optimal working tolerance.

Certainly, I design closer to the operational limits than most other driver makers. That's how I extract more acoustic performance. There's no "rocket science" here. Ask any 1st year engineering student about how to make a mechanical entity more efficient; He or she will start talking about reducing mass.

Naturally, there's a balance to be struck between material mass limitation and operational reliability. We're taking about "full-range" drivers which for a variety of reasons aren't designed to handle large amounts of power. So, for an design engineer like me, the question how far can I push materials and "design in" operational stability for the least amount of driven mass.

Right now, I'm happy the balance is about right with the introduction of "Multi-form" cone technology. I took me along time to get it right. Rigidity is a "key" factor.

Given a normal service operation for full-range drivers, CHR's, CHP's and Alpairs will perform nicely for many years.

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 4th February 2011 at 03:39 AM. Reason: Typo fix
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Old 4th February 2011, 12:19 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rullknufs View Post
Ah, you might be right with the run-in procedure...
I guess the Alpair 10.2 does everything, since it's a larger driver. But i like to push the drivers quite far and that text says that i shouldn't play music which gives more than 3.8mm excursion. Why only use like 40% of xmax? Let's say if i listen to some bass-heavy songs for around half an hour, using around 7-8mm xmax. How would the driver be damaged by that?
Hi Rull
Why would you want to push a full-range driver to regular 8-mm excursion? Aside the issues of massive distortion and the damage to your ears, any full-ranger will be crippled after about 10+ minutes of what is effectively "abuse".

There's bound to be the odd time when an input signal is severe (sudden roll of a drum etc). Being clear:

I've designed Markaudio drivers to cope with "one off" shock loads with a longer mechanical excursion to take care of this situation. I HAVE'NT designed Markaudio drivers to operate on very large driven loads for sustained periods.


You need to do more speaker design research work and better understand the function of audio drivers. Practical application has to be applied. If you're a "rock u roll" music lover who wants "loud", build a system with big heavy duty woofs (or subs) because you need drivers that can handle lots of power. Sorry to be blunt but you need to design a system that meets your needs. I don't design "thumpy lumpy boom-bang" drivers. There's lots of them already out there in the market place.

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 4th February 2011 at 02:30 AM. Reason: additional
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Old 4th February 2011, 02:43 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rullknufs View Post
Hey!
How much would the Alpair 10.2 suffer from having some sort of cloth grille in front of it? My brother has a cat and i'm getting a cousin in march this year so... Protection would be needed....
Hi Rull,
Alpair 10.2 is like most other drivers. A cat's claws and a baby's prodding finger can damage any driver. If your think your speaker system needs protection, add a grille. Does cloth affect the sound? Yes, its produces a damping factor, especially on thicker material. This applies to any driver behind such material.

Thanks

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 4th February 2011 at 03:46 AM. Reason: typo fix
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Old 4th February 2011, 06:47 AM   #8
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Thanks for the answers
I'm only 16 so i haven't learned so much yet about how the drivers actually work.

I play pretty much any music, right now i listen to Richard Marx acoustic, yesterday i listened to death metal and such. So i want a driver than handles both very well.

But... Let's say that if i don't use more than 4mm excursion i still push more than twice the amount of air that i do with EL70 at 4mm excursion (i've never pushed it that far i think).

I don't like woofers. The one i got now (a cheap commercial sub though) just kills the music. I prefer it turned off for all music.

And about sound levels... When i push my EL70 that's pretty much how loud i play when i'm home alone and like som party time, haha :P And i guess Alpair 10.2 can play even louder since it's a bigger driver and with a higher sensitivity.
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Old 4th February 2011, 08:11 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rullknufs View Post
Thanks for the answers
I'm only 16 so i haven't learned so much yet about how the drivers actually work.
I play pretty much any music, right now i listen to Richard Marx acoustic, yesterday i listened to death metal and such. So i want a driver than handles both very well.
But... Let's say that if i don't use more than 4mm excursion i still push more than twice the amount of air that i do with EL70 at 4mm excursion (i've never pushed it that far i think).
I don't like woofers. The one i got now (a cheap commercial sub though) just kills the music. I prefer it turned off for all music.
And about sound levels... When i push my EL70 that's pretty much how loud i play when i'm home alone and like som party time, haha :P And i guess Alpair 10.2 can play even louder since it's a bigger driver and with a higher sensitivity.
Hi Rull,
Your'e 16, good to have a young guy joining DIYaudio - well done!
Taking your questions.........
Depends on you cabinet design, 4-mm of excursion on the 10.2 will deliver allot more bass. The 10.2's larger cone surface area and greater usable excursion makes the difference. 10.2's will handle more power than the EL-70. Essentially, you want more base and power handling, you need a bigger driver.

Your observation on commercial woofers (also subs) is very good. Higher power woofs and subs won't have cones that are resonant. They can a low range noise but not particularly musical.

Please remember that I'm designing and making Alpair drivers more for low-medium powered audiophile grade systems. Compared to many full-rangers, Markaudio drivers are very bass capable; But they aren't designed to handle lots of power. So you'll need to be sensible and not drive them too hard.

More important: you've got a 16 year old hearing system that's likely going to 20kHz. Try to keep what you've got. Persistent loud music will cause long term damage. I'm 53 years old so trust me I say to you, take good care of your hearing. I only wish I could hear to 20-kHz. I spent too many nights are live rock concerts in my youth with my ears ringing from over-load at the end of the session.

Cheers

Mark.
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Old 4th February 2011, 12:22 PM   #10
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At normal listening levels when i'm home alone (not party volumes) i don't use much excursion at all at the moment. But i'd like some deeper bass and sometimes a little more. And more headroom, but it seems like i get much more headroom with Alpair 10.2.
My current sub feels "slow" and "dirty", not the same clear and tight bass as from the EL70. I'm afraid i'll have to spend quite much money on getting a woofer that plays as fine as either the EL70 or Alpair 10.2.

I hear up to around 18.5KHz, and yes i take care of my ears. Always earplugs on concerts and i prefer to listen to music at a level that wont hurt Enough is best

How do you think that Alpair 10.2 handles heavier music such as Meshuggah, Five Finger Death Punch, At The Gates and Mustasch? I listen a lot to that sort of music, but also like Norah Jones, Joe Bonamassa, Andy McKee, Diana Krall and those. I think my EL70 does everything well, but it can ofcourse be better.
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