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Old 2nd October 2010, 03:34 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by otto88 View Post
Would be a statement alright.
There are 4 a side in Joe Rassmesssun's Elsinore, in series - parallel

Is that how you intend wiring them?
The SDX7 probably out woofs the Peerless Joe is using. And it is happy in a sealed box -- i'm currently targeting 42 litres net.

Yes series/parallel. But if one wanted, in a multi-amp situation, you could use both channels of a sterao amp per side, each channel driving a pair in parallel.

One could use A10.2 or A12 as mid-tweeter too.

dave

PS: i know where there is a stash of SDX7 that can likley be had pretty cheap... especially if they get shipped to the western edge of the pacific.
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Old 2nd October 2010, 02:49 PM   #102
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iirc the Peerless Joe uses are flat to to c 2000 Hz

and iirc the SDX7 is a woofer that is flat to c 500-700 Hz, but can be fine in a smaller box
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Old 2nd October 2010, 06:16 PM   #103
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SDX7, once i finish the required treatment have a smooth rolloff at 1-1.1 JHz which is used to advantage. The highest XO i have used is 333 Hz.

dave
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Old 6th October 2010, 10:26 PM   #104
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I like the "old" Alpair 10 (Gen 1) alot, although I was still missing a tiny bit which I could not express what it is. At the beginning of this thread there is is this quote:

Quote:
If I know Mark, I suspect he's aiming for reduced distortion / improved detail & dispersion, as noted, while retaining the existing Alpair 10's forgiving character, with a nice, smooth top end.
This outlines a major strength of the AP10 Gen. 1. Although the resolution of the driver is quite good the AP10 still is somewhat forgiving for "so so quality" recordings. From a musical lovers point of view this can be a welcome trade-off to loose a tiny bit of sparkle or clarity, but gaining a (maybe you can call it "well rounded"?) coherent sound which still allows to enjoy the majority of recordings which are not "best" but mid-quality.

When now the Gen 2 driver exhibits more detail and clarity is some of this "forgiving attitude" sacrificed to gain the new benefits?
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Old 7th October 2010, 12:09 AM   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpnfan View Post
I like the "old" Alpair 10 (Gen 1) alot, although I was still missing a tiny bit which I could not express what it is. At the beginning of this thread there is is this quote:
This outlines a major strength of the AP10 Gen. 1. Although the resolution of the driver is quite good the AP10 still is somewhat forgiving for "so so quality" recordings. From a musical lovers point of view this can be a welcome trade-off to loose a tiny bit of sparkle or clarity, but gaining a (maybe you can call it "well rounded"?) coherent sound which still allows to enjoy the majority of recordings which are not "best" but mid-quality.
When now the Gen 2 driver exhibits more detail and clarity is some of this "forgiving attitude" sacrificed to gain the new benefits?
Hi Rpf,
Excellent points and well illustrates to challenges when designing and making full range drivers. Do I go all out for sheer detail? Or do I take a measure approach and "tweak"? Most folks possibly think of me as a "tweaker". I upgrade components to progressively improve the musicality of drivers, hence the many beta listening sessions with pre-production drivers.

The Gen. 2 Alp10's have just arrived into my Chai Wan warehouse and studio. So yesterday, I sat down by myself, hooked up a pair of new 10's with some 12 litre BR boxes, mated to Accuphase 308 and DP67, put on my Stockfish recording and listened. This is time when I feel really nervous. I've poured over LMS data, anechoic's, sweep data etc. etc. but its not until I put drivers into a normal listening situation, can I get a true taste of the character of a driver.

So far, with only a short listening session and drivers not run in, I'm feeling very pleased. I think I've got the Alp10 pretty much where it needs to be. There's more detail and dynamics. The central image is wide and strong. Bass remains strong. Mid range is particularly nice, well balanced. The driver's output remains sweet and natural.

This driver's (and new Alpair 6 paper) micro-resonance emittance's are significantly greater than the Gen. 1 drivers. You'll need a good amp, a good source and top music recordings.

The new drivers are being palleted at the warehouse this and next week ready for sea shipping. Should take around 6 weeks to arrive at dealers.

I'm guesting at the Tokyo Tube audio show this weekend so will start putting together all the tech. specs when I get back to HK later next week.

Cheers

Mark.

Last edited by markaudio; 7th October 2010 at 12:22 AM. Reason: typo mending
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Old 9th October 2010, 11:50 PM   #106
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Hi Mark and DIYers,

thank you for your AP10 Gen 2 Impressions

I don't ask to state the father which of his children is "better", but I try to figure out if for my needs Gen 1 or 2 would be better.

1) You state Gen 2 will need a good source -- does this apply more to Gen 2 then to Gen 1? Because I like to listen quite a bit to internet radio (really great way to learn more about new music) with 128kB. This is "o.k." for a first impression, but of course not good sound. When using Gen 1 this should be acceptable and one is not always remembered "too much" that the input is not highest quality. Will Gen 2. always point out such a problem too a much higher extent?

2) AP7 and 12 cones shall not be touched. I understand that all your drivers are delicate to handle, but if a child or a person accidently touches the driver is there a difference in robustness in this regard between AP10 Gen 1 and 2?

3) I want a nearfield speaker and would like to build the speaker without passive filtering, but to use a convolution filter which should linearize/fine-tune the drivers response for my specific room situation. Another option would be to use the Hypex module. Gen 1 is said to be pretty good listenable without passive filters, does this apply to Gen 2 too? That would be a plus, because if using FIR/convolution via PC it would be a bonus when for external CD player usage the speaker would still sound quite good without filtering if I deceide to go the PC based filtering route.

4) I fear that the raised HF range might be a problem or not to my liking?

If Mark or someone other has input on these questions I appreciate any input. Also if someone has a idea which design would be suited best for nearfield use (1 m =<), where the speaker cabinet will be _very_ close to a wall (on a desktop setup). A design which can be adjusted to some extent by small changes of damping material, BR port length or the like might be a good idea, because the listening setup might be different in the future and I think it is a good idea to suit the design to the specific use case, and _then_ fine-tuning with the help of measurements and thoughtful PC-based DSP usage or DSP filtering (like with the Hypex module is possible).

Looking forward your ideas.
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Old 10th October 2010, 11:40 PM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rpnfan View Post
Hi Mark and DIYers,

thank you for your AP10 Gen 2 Impressions

I don't ask to state the father which of his children is "better", but I try to figure out if for my needs Gen 1 or 2 would be better.

1) You state Gen 2 will need a good source -- does this apply more to Gen 2 then to Gen 1? Because I like to listen quite a bit to internet radio (really great way to learn more about new music) with 128kB. This is "o.k." for a first impression, but of course not good sound. When using Gen 1 this should be acceptable and one is not always remembered "too much" that the input is not highest quality. Will Gen 2. always point out such a problem too a much higher extent?

2) AP7 and 12 cones shall not be touched. I understand that all your drivers are delicate to handle, but if a child or a person accidently touches the driver is there a difference in robustness in this regard between AP10 Gen 1 and 2?

3) I want a nearfield speaker and would like to build the speaker without passive filtering, but to use a convolution filter which should linearize/fine-tune the drivers response for my specific room situation. Another option would be to use the Hypex module. Gen 1 is said to be pretty good listenable without passive filters, does this apply to Gen 2 too? That would be a plus, because if using FIR/convolution via PC it would be a bonus when for external CD player usage the speaker would still sound quite good without filtering if I deceide to go the PC based filtering route.

4) I fear that the raised HF range might be a problem or not to my liking?

If Mark or someone other has input on these questions I appreciate any input. Also if someone has a idea which design would be suited best for nearfield use (1 m =<), where the speaker cabinet will be _very_ close to a wall (on a desktop setup). A design which can be adjusted to some extent by small changes of damping material, BR port length or the like might be a good idea, because the listening setup might be different in the future and I think it is a good idea to suit the design to the specific use case, and _then_ fine-tuning with the help of measurements and thoughtful PC-based DSP usage or DSP filtering (like with the Hypex module is possible).

Looking forward your ideas.
Hi Rp,
I'm at the Tokyo audio shows so can only briefly reply:
Answering your questions in their order:

1 - I listen to I-Tunes (Mac) radio allot on my Alp7's at home. So long as you're prepared to accept a limited quality output, all Alpairs will work OK. I'm thinking more about getting the best from these drivers once you're playing CD or un-compressed music. Then, the better sources and amplification on Gen 2. models are desirable.
2 - Gen. 2 metal cones are stronger than Gen. 1 but still aren't child proof. Looking after any light mass full ranger, its best not to touch the cones.
3 - Given your love for smooooth sound; I've built the Gen. 2 Alpair 6 metal for this purpose. It's character is similar to the Gen. 1 with a but more clarity in the mid range, excellent for Near-field.
4 - Read 3 and you've already answered this comment (DSP)
5 - I'll be assembling data hoping next week so folks can start box designs.
Thx
Mark

Last edited by markaudio; 10th October 2010 at 11:42 PM. Reason: additional
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Old 15th October 2010, 09:01 PM   #108
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Hi Mark,

thank you for taking the time to answer my questions

Quote:
Originally Posted by markaudio View Post
1 - I listen to I-Tunes (Mac) radio allot on my Alp7's at home. So long as you're prepared to accept a limited quality output, all Alpairs will work OK. I'm thinking more about getting the best from these drivers once you're playing CD or un-compressed music. Then, the better sources and amplification on Gen 2. models are desirable.
2 - Gen. 2 metal cones are stronger than Gen. 1 but still aren't child proof. Looking after any light mass full ranger, its best not to touch the cones.
3 - Given your love for smooooth sound; I've built the Gen. 2 Alpair 6 metal for this purpose. It's character is similar to the Gen. 1 with a but more clarity in the mid range, excellent for Near-field.
I'm still trying to figure out if Gen 1 or Gen 2 will better fit my wishes. But from your answer I have the impression that I can not make a real "bad" choice and both drivers would be a good fit for my needs. Maybe a tad more towards Gen 2 when the cone is a little bit more strong. But I guess it's best to add an acoustic transparent front cover (at least for a while).

Your description of AP6 sounds interesting, but I guess that I will like the bigger drivers better. I listend to AP6. Then I listened to AP7 and found AP7 much better in my ears. There was more "weight" and an overall balanced presentation. Not that AP6 sounded unbalanced, but AP7 was clearly better in my ears. Another day I also had the chance to listen to AP7 and AP10 monitors and very much prefered AP10. I love when bass goes deep, but is clear and well defined like in the AP10 monitors (construction from Thorsten Fischer, BPA). So I lean toward AP10.

There is one question remaining I try to figure out before building the speakers. I heard the monitor "free" but I would have to use them close to a wall and I wonder how the sound will be effected and if in this case (near-field listening up to 1 m) the deeper bass of the AP10 will become a downside, or -- at least with DSP options -- will still bring me the full, but clear sound I experienced when hearing the speakers free standing? If someone has experience with a near-field setup with Alpairs I appreciate very much any input.

Best regards
Peter
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Old 11th November 2010, 08:20 AM   #109
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Hi Guys,
I've started a new thread on the Alpa10 Gen. 2 model. For details and making future posts, please go to:

Alpair 10 Gen. 2 introduction

Cheers

Mark.
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