Who's going to stop Israel

[leadbelly]

Originally posted by millwood
You simply cannot negotiate and have peace with someone who will see to your complete physical destruction.

Once again we have a statement of black & white. So there have never been any concessions towards peace by the Palestinians?

[SY]

as an excuse

A particularly excellent choice of word. An excuse. Not a reason. If the excuse goes away, the reason doesn't.

[Christer]

Originally posted by SY


A particularly excellent choice of word. An excuse. Not a reason. If the excuse goes away, the reason doesn't.

Yes, it was very deliberate, since I do realize it is an excuse,
not a reason. However, as long as other arab countries and
muslim fundamentalists use the conflict as such an excuse,
both israelis and palestinians will have problems and live an
unsafe life, and countries like the US who support Israel heavily
will be targeted. One may turn it around and say that if we
could solve all the problems in the arab world then the conflict
around Israel would go away. That might be true, but however
difficult to do, I believe it is still easier and necessary to solve
this conflict first. We can't force change upon the arab countries,
it has to come from within, so removing this means of
externalising their own interior problems would give a
different situation, but maybe they would find something else
to externalise their problems on then.

[Daniel-A]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by millwood
[B]


I didn't have a lot of sympathy for Israle quite frankly until 9/11.


Millwood 9/11 was an act of violence against the usa, not against israel!!!

Daniel

[Daniel-A]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by millwood
[B]

it is clearly ineffective and questionably justifiable. But it is also clearly the only alternative available to the Isralies facing an enemy that is determined to eliminate the state of Israle.

You simply cannot negotiate and have peace with someone who will see to your complete physical destruction. As long as the Palestianians have their eyes set on ...the state of Israle

Millwood you make me laugh with that one!

daniel

[millwood]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Daniel-A
[B]

Originally posted by millwood



I didn't have a lot of sympathy for Israle quite frankly until 9/11.


Millwood 9/11 was an act of violence against the usa, not against israel!!!

Daniel

if we keep the conversation and reading comprehension at this level, we would never be able to graduate to discuss anything above the elementory school level.

[roibm]

"It is clear and embarrassing to repeat that these operations are the ultimate laboratories for the creation of terrorism"
Ishai Rosen-Zvi,
Israeli reservist refusnik

"We're told all the time the Palestinians want to throw us into the sea. We have six million people in the strongest Army in the region yet we speak of them as if they were two equal powers. It's just manipulating people's fears"
Shrilamut Aroni,
former cabinet member

[B.VDBOS]

Originally posted by millwood


................But it is also clearly the only alternative available to the Isralies facing an enemy that is determined to eliminate the state of Israle.

What percentage of Isralies agree with you?

90%? 50%? 2%?

Do you know?

I dont

Originally posted by millwood

You simply cannot negotiate and have peace with someone who will see to your complete physical destruction. As long as the Palestianians have their eyes set on driving the state of Israle into the ocean, there will be not peace for anyone.

That sounds like an American speach

Are you sure your not getting your terrorists mixed up?

Israil has real terrorists, one of them may even kill sss

The American TERRORIST sounds like it belongs on a broomstick

Originally posted by millwood

So what is the best alternative in this situation? forcing the Palestians to come to a more sensible solution. If that means the use of brutal force, I am all for it.

"If that means the use of brutal force, I am all for it."

Like in Iraq?

Given the fact that you have managed to create a king sized Palistine in what must be record time is evidence you logic is wrong

Originally posted by millwood


the international community needs to realize that the more support they give to the Palestianisns in the use of terrorism to rebuild their country, the more we prolong a miserable process for all parties (especially the palestianins) and we impose more suffering onto the palestianisns. We need to make it absolutely clear to the Palestianians that we will not support their just cause of establishing a Palestantian state as long as they resort to terrorism.

Did Hitler write that

Do you think terrorists are wating to get the go ahead from the international comunity

How does the international community do that?

Our support for Palestantians is an effort to undermime terror, this means sometimes we say the same things the terroists say.
Like it or not palestanians will have a choice between listening to the terrorist tapping into there dilemma OR the international community, we need to be stronger and louder than the terrorists, we dont kill israilies

This is also important politicaly as an out for Sharon, bending to international pressure is better than giving in to terror, this is politcal not idealogical

Israil and our country are on good terms so I cant understand why we get this sh*t from American do gooders?

Originally posted by millwood

I am of the believe that the only way to communicate with a terrorist is to terrorize him or her into giving up terrorism. It is good for us, for the terrorist, and other potential terrorists too.

Maby you should draw a circle in the sand or throw some salt over you sholder

Originally posted by millwood

What is interesting is that what the Palestanians are fighting for was essentially offered by Barak years ago, had the Palestantians taken it. Instead, they answered it with this current round of uprising.

Do you mean Arafat is dumb?

Figger that one out yourself?

.

[head_spaz]

by Jack Kinsella (OmegaLetter)

During the 1991 Gulf War, Yasser Arafat and the Palestinian Authority threw their support behind Saddam Hussein and Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. While the rest of the Arab world reluctantly fought beside American troops to throw Saddam out of Kuwait, Arafat made a trip to Baghdad to encourage the dictator.

Arafat's support of Saddam cost the Palestinians dearly.

The Saudis and Kuwaitis, until the Gulf War, were among the PLO's chief patrons, supplying the bulk of Arafat's operating capital. More than two hundred thousand Jordanian 'Palestinians' had lived and worked in Kuwait for generations -- another four hundred thousand in Saudi Arabia.

During that time, they were sending a portion of their salaries back home to Jordan (where Palestinians came from) to help support their families.

When Arafat backed Saddam, that all came crashing to a halt. The Kuwaitis and Saudis cut off PLO funding. All the 'Palestinian' workers in both countries were immediately deported -- to Jordan.

Suddenly, hundreds of thousands of displaced 'Palestinians', instead of helping to support Jordan's economy, now dotted the Jordanian desert in hastily thrown-up refugee camps. Jordan's King Hussein refused to assimilate them into Jordan's general population and, since Arafat was responsible for their expulsion, he left it up to Arafat to deal with.

Supporting Saddam cost Arafat his funding, his most powerful political supporters, forced his people into concentration camps in Jordan and left him with no other recourse but to seek peace with Israel.

On September 13, 1993, Yasser Arafat and Yitzhak Rabin stood together in the Rose Garden of the White House, shook hands, and signed the Oslo Accords.

The Oslo Agreement was set up in three stages. The first two years of the agreement were to be an experimental period during which time Israel would grant the new Palestinian Authority 'limited autonomy' over the Gaza Strip and the West Bank town of Jericho.

During this period, the PA was to be given autonomy over local government services, like trash collection, public education and local law enforcement. Certain obligations were imposed on both sides.

For example, a shared capital at Jerusalem was off the table. In fact, the PA agreed not to conduct any official business within the city limits.

Before the ink was dry, Arafat set up his official 'government' offices at the Orient House in East Jerusalem and dared Israel to do something about it.

Arafat stood on the Jericho Road and claimed ALL the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, as his Palestinian State -- within two months of signing an agreement promising he would not.

The next phase of the agreement was to run three years, during which time, assuming the 'limited autonomy' experiment was successful, it would be expanded over a greater part of the West Bank.

The two-year 'limited autonomy' did NOT work, Arafat broke every part of his agreement, and by the time Phase Two was due to start, Arafat had already claimed the whole West Bank as his eventual Palestinian State.

The Oslo Agreement specifically precluded any consideration of statehood until Stage Three -- the final dispostion of Jerusalem period. Phase Two was due to run its course for three years, ending in September, 1998. If the experiment in expanding limited autonomy was successful, the two sides would begin negotiations over Jerusalem.

Of course, Phase Two was NOT successful, Arafat broke every part of his agreement, and turned down everything offered him at Camp David. The offer extended him by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was so generous it is doubtful it would have passed the Knesset.

It gave Arafat 97% of the West Bank plus all the Gaza Strip for his Palestinian State and even offered Arafat a shared capital in Jerusalem.

So, the two year 'final status' phase of Oslo, ostensibly over the permanent status of Jerusalem, was already decided before it was due to come to the table. Barak offered Arafat everything he had been demanding, and Arafat turned it down cold.

Oslo also required regular Palestinian leadership elections. Arafat honored that once, in 1996, and claiming the title of 'President' in violation of Oslo. The next election was due in September, 2000, and for the first time, it really looked like his people were ready for a change.

On September 13, 2000, seven years after Oslo's land-for-peace effort began, instead of peace, Arafat launched the current war against the Jews.

To the average Palestinian living under Arafat's regime, life has become a living hell, and it just keeps getting worse.

During his heyday, Arafat and his entourage showed up to negotiating sessions, exiting their chauffer-driven Mercedes wearing silk Armani suits, paid for by Western aid packages designed to alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people.

Arafat didn't WANT to alleviate the suffering of the Palestinian people, because if they were happy, they'd be disinclined to resume the conflict with Israel, which was Arafat's plan all the time.

(His 1974 Phased Plan for the Destruction of Israel called for obtaining all that was possible through negotiation, and then to use the acquired real estate as a base for operations aimed at Israel's destruction.)

Since Arafat's funding has dried up, he can no longer pay salaries to his security forces. Now, Arafat is taking a page from his deposed hero Saddam, and is encouraging security officers to rob, pillage, rape and even kill ordinary Palestinians who get in the way.

A new report was just issued by the Palestinian Human Rights Monitoring Group, entitled, "Intrafada, the Chaos of the Weapons."

The report documents official Palestinian abuse of their own people and the transformation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip into a wasteland of violence.

According to the report, those who can, run. The report said Christian migration has increased and cities with Christian majorities have been taken over by the Hamas and Islamic Jihad. Hamas and Jihad encourage this migration.

[head_spaz]

First, they target Christian women who don't dress according to Islamic norms. Then they take over Christian homes for use in attacks against Israeli forces, particularly in the Bethlehem area.

The report said 90 percent of what it termed "gang lawlessness" can be traced to people on the PA payroll. The report said Fatah operatives often bring their guns to a dispute between Palestinian neighbors.

According to the report, the most effective tactic is to denounce someone as an 'Israeli collaborator' - a charge that can carry a sentence of death without trial.

The PA or the terror gangs often swoop in to detain, torture and even kill a Palestinian accused of collaboration. No one bothers to investigate, even if Arafat orders a probe.

Collaboration also provides an option to punish women. The accusation by a husband that his wife is a collaborator has a chilling affect on the family.

Women who don't listen to their fathers have been accused of collaboration to ensure that they are killed. Fatah terrorists often rape and then kill women who refuse to marry them and later charge the victims with being collaborators.

"Violence permeates the security forces, and it is worsened by legal confusions," the group said in the report.

"Unless and until more accountability and order is introduced, the problem will remain and could worsen as PA control continues to deteriorate. Sometimes violence erupts between police members and loyalists of political factions."

It is important to remember that this report wasn't authored by the Americans or the Israelis, or even by the UN. This report was authored by Palestinians living under what Arafat calls a 'government'.

It notes that Arafat operates more than 12 security and police agencies. They include the civilian police, civil defense, national force, Preventive Security Apparatus, coastal police, civilian intelligence, military intelligence and the presidential guard.

There are also secret intelligence and security cells that conduct operations so dirty that the PA doesn't want to be formally connected.

The report cited an absence of a command structure in the dozen or more PA security agencies, including the police, Preventive Security Apparatus, intelligence services, coastal force and presidential guard.

"The confusion is especially dangerous with regard to the multitude of Palestinian policing forces, whose roles remain ambiguous, but who exist independently of each other," the report stated.

"Even insiders do not know who is in charge and which branch is responsible for which tasks. The overlap of jurisdictions can result in both verbal and physical infighting among those forces designed to protect the larger populace from violence."

The report also noted that, "Arafat only exacerbates the problem by playing each security chief off against the other in order to secure his own position."

Finally, the report notes that an Israeli withdrawal from the Gaza Strip would be disastrous for Palestinians. When the Israelis are gone, the report said, Palestinians expect an increase in PA abuse, corruption and dictatorship, with their only hope being a Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

The Palestinian group does not envision cooperation between Hamas and the PA in sharing power.

"Two opposing power centers -- the PA and Hamas -- cannot co-exist or coordinate affairs, especially if there is no geographical continuity," the report said. "The 'Gaza First' initiative thus raises the prospect of two separate Palestinian states -- an Islamic one in Gaza, and a PA-controlled one in the West Bank."

Assessment:

As is now evident, the 'land for peace' equation was accurate only in that, as long as Israel was actively giving up land, there was an illusion of peace.

When Barak made what amounted to a final offer of land, Arafat had no reason to continue the illusion of peace.

Since the collapse of Oslo, the United States and European Community have launched various initiatives aimed at salvaging Oslo. Together with the UN and Russia, the so-called 'Quartet' have agreed to the creation of a Palestinian State beside Israel, despite the PA's history and Arafat's leadership.

But Israel declared the Quartet-sponsored Road Map dead as well, and is launching its own pullout from Gaza, effectively turning it over to the terrorists who already control it.

The prospect of two separate Palestinian states is a real possibility. And this is where it all starts to tie in to Bible prophecy.

The Gaza Strip was never part of Eretz Israel. Although it was granted to Abraham, God ordered Joshua to destroy Canaan's inhabitants and expressly forbid any alliances with them.

"And ye shall make no league with the inhabitants of this land; ye shall throw down their altars: but ye have not obeyed my voice: why have ye done this? Wherefore I also said, I will not drive them out from before you; but they shall be as thorns in your sides, and their gods shall be a snare unto you." (Judges 2:2-3)

What is today the Gaza Strip was, in King David's time, inside the borders of the land of the Phillistines. To this day, they are as thorns in Israel's side, and the followers of Allah are dedicated to Israel's annihilation.

The failed Oslo Agreement was a covenant between Israel and those same traditional enemies of seven year's duration. Subsequent efforts to revive the agreement and confirm its terms have so far been unsuccessful.

The prophet Daniel wrote of the coming antichrist:

"And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:26)

Daniel's 'week' is a 'week' of years -- the Hebrew calendar calculates in 'weeks' of seven years the way the Greek calendar calculated 'decades' of ten years each. The one-week covenant already exists.

It failed, but only because there was nobody willing to confirm its terms. The Bible says the antichrist will come up with a way to ensure both sides keep the revived agreement.

The possible separation of Gaza and the West Bank fits with Zechariah's prophecies for the last days concerning the war over Jerusalem and the disputed territories.

"The LORD also shall save the tents of Judah first, that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem do not magnify themselves against Judah." (Zechariah 12:7-8)

The modern West Bank 'territory' is Biblical Judea and Samaria -- the House of David didn't include Gaza, and neither does Zechariah.

"And when these things BEGIN TO COME TO PASS, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh," Jesus told the generation that would witness the complete fulfillment of prophecy and His return at the conclusion of the Armageddon War.

"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till ALL be fulfilled." (Luke 21:28,32)