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Old 4th May 2004, 06:55 PM   #21
speaker is offline speaker  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY


Penn and Teller just did a wonderful show on recycling.

I know, I know, more energy is expended than if produced from scratch..... But, recycling makes me feel good! Better than when I threw my trash out any open window.

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Old 4th May 2004, 07:00 PM   #22
SY is offline SY  United States
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Quote:
recycling makes me feel good!
That was their point- aside from aluminum cans, it doesn't help the environment and it actually is deleterious because of lower energy efficiency. But it makes everyone feel good.

I'm in a busines that uses a lot of plastics; when we first got into this, I researched the whole recycling thing and found out the stuff that P&T talked about. It was a great shock to me, but not so shocking that I don't print a little recycling symbol on our products; that's what our customers want, so that's what I'll give 'em.
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Old 4th May 2004, 07:29 PM   #23
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Originally posted by speaker


You should come visit here and speak with more people about our concern for the environment. I'm 43; recycling and enviromental responisibility were part of my education going back 35 years. Nearly every urban community in the US recycles today.

In addition, you 've got blue skies over Los Angeles when they used to be smog-choked 365 days a year. Songbirds not seen for 3 decades have returned in New England and you can swim in the Charles river in Boston. In the past, high levels of PCB's, toluene, and other manufacturing wastes were evident. The US is cleaner now than it has been for decades. Can you say the same about all EU member states?

speaker

Still the USA is responsible for one third of the worlds air pollution. The government did not sign the Kyoto agreement for obvious reasons.

I can't really speak for the new EU members as I did not ask for them. Saw a documentary about Lithuania just when they were 1 day member of the EU; they have very large quantities poison stocked in leaking barrels that originate from the communistic period of the country. The environment guy of their government spoke about the costs of hundreds of millions to clean it all up and he expected the EU to financially help them out Quite a good start for a new member !
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Old 4th May 2004, 07:40 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by SY


That was their point- aside from aluminum cans, it doesn't help the environment and it actually is deleterious because of lower energy efficiency. But it makes everyone feel good.


The unfortunate part about forum posting is the loss of inflection. My comment was tendered with a wee bit of sarcasm.

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Old 4th May 2004, 08:10 PM   #25
roibm is offline roibm  Romania
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Originally posted by jean-paul
Still the USA is responsible for one third of the worlds air pollution. The government did not sign the Kyoto agreement for obvious reasons.
I do not expect USA to take care of the pollution within the next few years. And the international community can't do much either, since the USA is the big daddy in the world and they can just decide to ignore whatever they want to ignore.

Quote:

I can't really speak for the new EU members as I did not ask for them. Saw a documentary about Lithuania just when they were 1 day member of the EU; they have very large quantities poison stocked in leaking barrels that originate from the communistic period of the country. The environment guy of their government spoke about the costs of hundreds of millions to clean it all up and he expected the EU to financially help them out Quite a good start for a new member !
About the new EU countries: many are not ready, and many will suffer because of their addition. Both in the old EU countries as in the new ones. But sooner or later, I hope this is going to pay off.
As any beginning, it will not be easy. The problems will be many(sounding a bit like the iraqian info minister?).
There is also the possibility that there will never be full consensus in the new EU, who knows. What is clear for now is that the old countries must roll out many billions euros.

But in the end, this is not a subject to be discussed here.
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Old 4th May 2004, 08:23 PM   #26
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Originally posted by roibm


But in the end, this is not a subject to be discussed here.

Why not? You are more than willing to point out & discuss the perceived faults of the USA. A fair-minded individual would agree that it is reasonable to also discuss the shortcomings of the EU as well, yes?

The EU is now larger than the USA in terms of land occupied. Your contribution of pollution to the world surely exceeds ours when you factor in the new members.

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Old 4th May 2004, 09:16 PM   #27
roibm is offline roibm  Romania
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Quote:
Originally posted by speaker



Why not? You are more than willing to point out & discuss the perceived faults of the USA. A fair-minded individual would agree that it is reasonable to also discuss the shortcomings of the EU as well, yes?

The EU is now larger than the USA in terms of land occupied. Your contribution of pollution to the world surely exceeds ours when you factor in the new members.
open a new thread for bashing on EU. this thread is about something else, which concerns us all.
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Old 4th May 2004, 09:25 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally posted by roibm

open a new thread for bashing on EU. this thread is about something else, which concerns us all.
I'm sorry you feel I'm bashing the EU but you opened this line of discussion. You commented that thinking today was typified by driving a 10MPG vehicle and using class-A amplifiers. That led me to believe you wished to explore environmental issues beyond oil usage in deeper detail.

Sorry, my mistake.



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Old 4th May 2004, 09:42 PM   #29
roibm is offline roibm  Romania
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Quote:
Originally posted by speaker
I'm sorry you feel I'm bashing the EU but you opened this line of discussion.
You commented that thinking today was typified by driving a 10MPG vehicle and using class-A amplifiers. That led me to believe you wished to explore environmental issues beyond oil usage in deeper detail.
Ok. Here we go.

First point
I have said:
Quote:
Typical example of thinking for today, not carring about the future and probably driving a 10mpg car along a class a amp that sucks 1kW @ idle.
which should be read like this(please note that my english is not my native language and that it is a far cry from being perfect):
Quote:
Typical example of: "thinking for today, not carring about the future" and probably driving a 10mpg car along a class a amp that sucks 1kW @ idle.
By "thinking for today" I mean thinking about present and not much about the future.


Second point
Quote:
But in the end, this is not a subject to be discussed here.
I was more like refering to what I wrote and what jean-paul wrote(not the entire thing he wrote, just the following quoted text)
Quote:
The environment guy of their government spoke about the costs of hundreds of millions to clean it all up and he expected the EU to financially help them out Quite a good start for a new member !

I for one don't like your judgment, and especially what you wrote:
Quote:
Scare people with any plausible scenario and they will buy your book in droves.
We've had multiple collapse economy tales, ebola plagues, global warming, multiple Chernobyls, rise of the right, rise of the left, demise of the center, AIDS, you name it. Lots of books were sold on each topic and we're all still here.
I do believe this is a very serious situation and should not be treated as any other scary movie/book because it ain't anything close to that. What the guy is writing ain't b***scheit and he doesn't have next to him a lot of worthless people. Contrary.
I do believe that we are approaching the real oil problem, and quite fast. The alternatives are none(or better said, I see none, but please, if you do see some share them with all the others). And you must only look at our economy and what is the element that drives it. I believe everything depends on energy.
One think you must agree with is that the oil reserves aren't great at all. On the other side the demand is always on the rise. Where is this heading towards? I bet it ain't a wonderful heaven on earth.

So please give it a second thought as it really isn't your average scary book.
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Old 5th May 2004, 01:59 AM   #30
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There's no oil shortage and gas prices are quite cheap if you figure in inflation. If we had to use them, there are many untapped reserves in the states, but I hope we buy and use up the rest of the worlds oil first so we're not at anyones mercy when it does start to dry up.

A for me, I'll continue driving my 5.9 liter 85 miles an hour with the air condition on (9.4 MPG at last check). And I'll keep my A/C in my big house down to 70 degF as my Alephs idle at 450 watts each.

And about the Kyoto agreement, CO2 is not a polutant. It is a harmless byproduct of fuel use and the lifeblood of the rainforest.
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