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Old 5th April 2004, 07:32 PM   #21
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This comparison does not hold. A lot of parts are of the same quality as in pc's as they are 100 % the same. A problem for Apple is that they don't sell as much hardware as generic pcbuilders and thus they pay more for their cdrom/dvdrom/harddrives etc. The buyer of a Mac will have to pay more for the hardware because of that and other reasons. Sometimes the parts were substandard in the past, think of power supplies that were produced in small numbers and were underdimensioned because of cost. CPU speeds are lower because Apple is one of the few manufacturers that needs fast RISC CPUs. On the other hand: Apple is the first to introduce newer techniques like IEEE1394 or Firewire, Gigabit ethernet, wireless etc. so naturally this will add to the cost. This can have a fanout of adapters, cables and the like because users want to use their older peripherals on newer Macs. ADB vs. USB is an example of that, or the Apple-own DVI variant. If I count that costs to the total cost of a Mac....

Apple has the advantage that hard and software work seamlessly together as they are designed by the same company. This is a true advantage as Mac-users are used to a computer that does what it should do. Productivity is higher than that of pc-users since ages because of the clever interface and interaction with the user. A pc user can't beat that. It is a joy to work with a Mac once you get used to it. Maintenance is not as much needed as with pc's which counts as a great advantage, not just costwise. Virusses are something a Mac-user laughs about when the rest of the company is infected with the latest Netsky variant.

They have been used by users in the creative fields of art, publishing, video and audio in the past for various reasons but even the fanatical Apple users will agree that the traditional differences between Mac and pc have become a lot smaller ( except for the design that is beautiful with the more recent models ). The introduction of the rocksolid MacOS X has changed things quite a bit but Win XP is not bad either. Cost of Win XP is higher but bought with volume licences things look different. Office is expensive for both Mac and pc.

In the end it'll be a question of taste and software although I really doubt Apple will ever return to the normal offices. They have a chance on traditional niche markets like DTP and graphical design till pc's have taken over. Unfortunately some of the traditional softwarehouses like Adobe don't produce MacOS X versions of some of their software. This is a pity for the future of Apple and they will have a hard time developing their own software. Windows does not lack any software in whatever field you can mention. Also prices of pc software are often lower than the Apple versions. A real advantage in costs, there is also choice in software.

We can discuss about quality but Mac computers break down too ( the Cube for instance ). We should compare downtime of brand pc's like Dell with Apple, I am sure the difference is minimal. Some models break down more than others but still. I install/maintain Macs so I should know a little. The fact that Mac's last twice as long as pc's can be taken with a grain of salt as pc's and mac's do not need to live longer than 3 years in real life ( in companies ). Upgrade-ability of pc's exceed that of Mac computers as parts are cheap and interchangeable. Ever bought a new VGA board for a mac ??? Apple Mac computers are more expensive than pc's and that alone is enough to lose a battle in the economical situation of today. History learnt that the best platforms rarely win/survive. Just look at VCC vs. VHS....
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:06 PM   #22
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Excuse me but I thought the whole thing was about the total cost

How much costs a XP Pro licence? How much much costs Windows server? How much costs Mac OSX server? How much costs all Windows consultants runing around? What costs more?
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:15 PM   #23
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What do you use Per-Anders ? An expensive XP machine or a Mac ?

BTW the whole circus of consultants and IT personnel is very good for employment and the economy. If the world would choose for Apple unemployment numbers would rise significantly
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:24 PM   #24
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I use both a 1.8 GHz DELL and a stone age Mac G3 at 267 MHz (500 HMz at home) and the functional speed difference isn't as huge as you might think. The DELL (DVD-RW, ZIP, FW, USB, SC, Speakers, graphic card, modem, network card etc) costed last year around 2500 USD and you can get a decent Mac for this with similar accessories.
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:26 PM   #25
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Could you get a decent Mac at *that* time for the same money !?!? Last year G4 computers were pretty expensive compared to pc's with comparable real-life speed ( if you want to do the useless comparison in speed ). I also think that the Dell was one of the more expensive models of that time and that it was bought with 3 years onsite service and accessoires.

BTW I have a pile of beige G3 266 MHz computers at work that have been written off by Apple users because they're too slow to work with.
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:33 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally posted by jean-paul
Could you get a decent Mac at *that* time for the same money !?!?

BTW I have a pile of beige G3 266 MHz computers at work that have been written off by Apple users because they're too slow to work with.
For 2000-2500 USD you can get a decent Mac.

Too slow for what? Running MS software? 500 MHz G3 is still rather usefull, surfing the internet, running Office, PCB cad, editing audio, etc etc. Not so good in editing video though...
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:34 PM   #27
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This keeps getting dragged around to hardware... hardware isn't all that important, it is just the player -- reminds me of the lost audiophiles who are only interested in the equipment and forget that the whole point of the excercise is to enjoy the music.

The Mac has way more elegant software than any Windoz box, and that all starts at the OS. The reason a Mac lasts twice as long as a PC is because the software is still doing the job.... people are still getting done what they need to get done. The Mac OS -- Classic or UNIX *breaks much less than Windoz -- a major contributor to a lower total cost of ownership. I know many a tech who says if you want a computer to use, get a Mac, if you want one that will keep me employed buy a Windoz box (i don't know how many times i've heard -- OK we need to do a complete reinstall from the ground up -- it is something that just doesn't have to be done that often on a Mac).

*althou OS X breaks quite a bit less than Classic (just like anything when it does break it can be a real mess).

And this is backed up by serious research -- a study of close to 4000 creative businesses using computers showed that a Mac user on average had 27 billable hours in a 40 hr work week, and a PC user 18. A large portion of the 9 hours difference was spent having the computer user watching the tech fix his computer ... add the dollars up on that -- matter of fact the study said that it could be used as the basis for a law suit against any director advocating change to Windoz based on failing their fiduciary responsibilities.

XP may seem similar to OS X on the face of it, but it is not even close. Further, by the next time the Windoz OS has a major upgrade, OS X will have had many significant upgrades -- so far they are coming about 9 months apart, with regular incremental upgrades in between.

Microsoft has already shot themselves in the foot, it is just soooo biiiggg that it is going to take sometime for the gangarene to kill it.(flame suit on).

dave
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:38 PM   #28
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It's a shame though that there isn't a single good pcb cad software for the Mac
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:41 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally posted by jean-paul
BTW I have a pile of beige G3 266 MHz computers at work that have been written off by Apple users because they're too slow to work with.
Any chance of getting the motherboard from one of those? The G3 All-in-One i use with Mac-the-Scope as a dedicated oscilloscope has gone down with a dead board and i'd sorely like to resurrect it (and an Apple replacement is worh more than the computer)

The Biege G3s are falling off the bottom because they really aren't adequate to run OS X (having all the old standard mac I/O connections) ... they are also all 6 or 7 years old.

dave
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Old 5th April 2004, 08:45 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally posted by planet10
The Mac has way more elegant software than any Windoz box, and that all starts at the OS. dave

I think we are doing this backwards. People (most of them anyway) purchase computers as tools, not as a platform to run a given OS.

Yes, OSX may be better than Windows, but that's pretty much meaningless for a lot of us who, as long as they can find a copy of Office, are happy as a dog.

It is in terms of software titles (again, grossly generalizing it) that Windows has a considerable advantage over the OSX.

The best OS I have ever encountered is Forth: small, integrated and does pretty much anything. Then it is not for everyone.

As for usability, both BeOS and DOS are pretty good. I think NextOS and OSX are similar with OSX has a more modern look. some linux distributions aren't bad either (Knoppix comes to my mind).
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